Explaining legal names to kids

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 4:21 pm

amother OP wrote:

Shepherd/Shep is actually pretty popular with the WASP set where we live.

There are several reasons : 1) like I mentioned, he has a very Jewish name with no nickname and it drives him insane to have people constantly mispronouncing it or commenting on it. He gives my name for orders and such.
2) fear of antisemitism/holocaust trauma.” They can’t round up your kids if they can’t tell they’re Jewish on the paperwork” kind of thing. He says this is a Chofetz Chaim thing and several friends did it as well, but I’m not from a Chofetz Chaim background so I can’t confirm.
3) We didn’t want to give their Hebrew names and then give a totally separate Hebrew name as the English name. Both kids’ first Hebrew names are from his family and their second Hebrew names are ones that I chose for the meaning, so picking a Hebrew name like David, Sara, etc. just because it sounded good in English wasn’t really an option.

Just one point- if you think the only way they can tell who's Jewish is by their name, you got another think coming Smile

There are 5 billion data points on you of which a tremendous amount of them will make it very clear you're Jewish.

Which dr ur kids go to, credit card charges to Jewish places, children enrolled in Jewish schools, and anyway besides all that it's not gonna help you much in any case if your name is Shepherd Finkelstein.

Jewishmofm

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 4:26 pm

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

I intentionally only give my kids Jewish names, as their legal name too. I'm raising them with pride in their Jewish name instead of feeling like they have to have a name nonJews will like better or pronounce better.

Same. growing up we all had secular legal names - except two brothers whose names included ches...go figure. Most people struggle to pronounce my Tzvi's name. Our son with a ches name seems easier - they just pronounce the CH as in chair.

amother

Birch

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 4:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

1. My dh’s name is Shepherd lol it’s extremely rare
2. In the Holocaust they found every Jew no matter what their name was. Kurt, Johann- no matter what the Jew’s name was, they found them.
3. The way we survived mitzrayim was by keeping our Jewish names

I know it’s irrelevant because your kids have names already Smile

I wouldn’t blame it on daddy

I’d just say we like to give an easy to pronounce legal name for legal documents

amother

↑ Zinnia

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 4:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

Shepherd/Shep is actually pretty popular with the WASP set where we live.

I've worked in WASPy school settings for a couple of decades, and while some of the dads might be named something along the lines of Shepherd, the kids are much more likely to be named something like Jonah or Caleb. So maybe it's location dependent, but you really can't go wrong with the English version of a Biblical name.
Of course, like another poster pointed out, last names are a more distinct marker of a Jewish background, anyway.

amother

Whitesmoke

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 4:37 pm

If anyone thinks for a second that having a non Jewish name will prevent them from a holocaust, anti Semites aren’t that stupid. They have other ways of finding out who’s Jewish. That being said, I gave a few of my children (not all) English names if A. Their name was complicated to pronounce or B. There was an obvious English equivalent (ex. Yaakov is Jacob). I happen to dislike the English name we gave my first child. My husband chose it and I was too postpartum to think about it. But go figure, my child is thrilled with the name.

mom24b

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 4:46 pm

amother OP wrote:

Most give the closest name to the Hebrew name either in similar to how it sounds or similar to the meaning. For example Yochanan would be Jonathon , yehuda would be Jeffery or could even be juda (sorry the theory about the holocaust not being able to round up Jews if they don’t have a Jewish name is complete nonsense and has zero logical rationale. There were thousands if not millions that had completely German /polish names (without some even knowing they were Jewish themselves) yet the Germans figured it out…, if there is no similar English name most give a and with similar meaning. My name is Ahuva and my English name is Anne since in the baby book my mother had it said Anne is the angel of love ……

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 5:15 pm

Most of my kids have Hebrew names that are easy to pronounce. Only one of my kids has a legal name different than their Hebrew name. His Hebrew name is long and has a "ch" in it, so we were worried the doctors (and later in life, his coworkers) would completely butcher his name, hence the secular legal name. Now this child is a tween and I regret doing this. He HATES having a legal name and greatly resents it. He can't wait till we can legally change it to his Hebrew name.

Funny story- when I brought him to the pediatrician office when he was 2 weeks old, the non-Jewish nurse asked me his name and I said 'Zeke'. Without batting an eyelash, she responds "Oh, is that short for Yechezkel?" with perfect pronunciation of the "ch". LOL, the joke's on us.
So I've since changed my mind about having easy to pronounce names. As long as there is a suitable easy nickname, it really doesn't matter.

amother

Cyclamen

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 5:24 pm

amother OP wrote:

“because Daddy wanted you to have a name that doesn’t sound Jewish.”

For the future dont say things like Daddy wanted just say “we” a child doesn’t need to know you disagreed about their name. Etc. end of the fay whatever decision you come to own it together. To your kids always say “we/us” even if you dont agree

Frumomsi

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 6:37 pm

To clarify, do you know what “WASPy” stands for? Why would you want a Protestant type anything?

I’ve seen kids with curly payos who were given Irish Catholic names. Looks a lot weirder to non Jews who know how mismatched it is.

There’s something in between spelling names with their Yiddish pronunciation (which is see more of) and giving a name that connotes a culture we can never be a part of.

amother

↑ OP

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 7:24 pm

amother Birch wrote:

I wouldn’t blame it on daddy

I’d just say we like to give an easy to pronounce legal name for legal documents

That’s so funny! He has a growing contingent of little southern boys who share his name. I looked it up out of curiosity and it’s tripled in popularity in in the last 8 years.

thank you for acknowledging that my kids have the names and giving the advice I asked for. I gave all these arguments to my husband 5 years ago and he was not willing to compromise, so no matter how silly they are, we’re here.

I think I’ve figured out that if it comes up again, I’ll just say we needed a name to tell the hospital but had to keep their Hebrew names a secret until they got them in shul, so we gave them English names. True, neutral, and not so complicated.

#BestBubby

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 8:47 pm

My teen son complained why we gave him an English name. He didn't like when doctors called him the English name.

I told him he could change his legal name to his Hebrew name if he wants.

But I gave him an English name because his Hebrew name is hard to pronounce.

My son works for non jews and is happy he has an English name.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 8:54 pm

If it's just a matter of working with nonJews, I don't get why people need an English legal name. None of my siblings or parents have an English legal name, and those who wanted to have a nickname for work gave themselves ones that work for them once they started working (think Sam for Shmuel or Dave for Dovid). Who at work insists on knowing your legal name? You could have the legal name Jessica and tell everyone you're called Beth.

The only ones who must know your legal names are HR, medical staff, and other financial or legal staff, things like that, and how much of the average person's life is spent dealing with them that everyone is soooo worried about them struggling to pronounce your name?

amother

White

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 10:13 pm

amother Birch wrote:

I wouldn’t blame it on daddy

I’d just say we like to give an easy to pronounce legal name for legal documents

You can't escape anti semites. I know someone who married a nonjewish woman so his kids wouldn't be jewish in the event of another Holocaust.

They rounded up anyone with a Jewish grandparent. Wouldn't make a difference

B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 10:25 pm

So I thought the rationale for giving secular names in the states is passe - but since you did it, I would explain that Jews in Galus have traditionally had to watch their Yiddishkeit and kept two names, like Esther whose real name was Hadassah etc. . Jews have been holding two names for thousands of years, even Yosef Hatzaddik had another name when in Pharoahs palace.

She can consider it like having a family nickname which we love - her true essence, and an official name for the outside world who dont need to know our nicknames which we share only with those we love.

We daven for the days when Moshiach will be here and we can live Torah true lives openly in Eretz Yisroel without the need for secular names.

BTW if you didnt notice, Im not crazy over the term Legal Names but understand your using them. As your children grow they will learn that there are families who write Avraham, Yechezkel, Yocheved etc on their birth certificates and dont secularize the names. You can explain that that is how your family did it for generations and we respect that and cling to our parents ways. Tradition.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 10:47 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

She can consider it like having a family nickname which we love - her true essence, and an official name for the outside world who dont need to know our nicknames which we share only with those we love.

Wow, I'm sorry, but I absolutely hate the idea of telling your kid that her Jewish name is just a family nickname, and the English name is the official name.

A nickname is by definition a familiar or humorous name given instead of or in addition to a real name.

If anything I would explain it as the opposite, your Jewish name is your real, official name, the essence of you, which your family and community will know you by, and then there's a minor detail, an English name, just to make paperwork easier for those out of the loop.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 10:54 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Secondly, both those examples are situations where a Jew had to go to a place of danger for them, and therefore had to be in disguise. Esther was not truly safe in the palace and neither was Yosef. While living at home with their family, even when still living under the rulership of nonJews, they would have been called by their actual name.

So yes, if you are in a dangerous situation and need to disguise yourself, take on a fake name and hide who you are. Not from day one of your birth and not for all time!

amother

Latte

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 11:28 pm

Hebrew name, English name
Hebrew birthday, English birthday
Etc
We didn't do this but people struggle with the "ch" sound so it can be upsetting when they really mispronounce names.
Don't tell kids it is out of fear. Tell them it is just what one does and leave it there. It is common in the generations above us to do this and less common now because we live in a society which accepts non Western names eg ok to be called Tarik, Sijiojua, Pieto, Kuntal, Keisha* etc rather than Jack, Robert or William.

(*All names of adults I work with)

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 12:06 am

Saying that Yosef HaTzaddik (Tzafnat Poneach) or Esther HaMalka did anything out of fear is really not respectful..Both lived their lives with true Bitachon in Hashem that we cant possibly begin to touch. Both kept secular names when in contact with officials. It was the tradition in those days. I dont think it was out of fear.

Rereading my post, I never wrote fear. And interpreting it that way is just your spin.

What is your source for saying these Tzaddikim and Tzaddikot had secular names out of fear?