Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

amother

Papayawhip

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 10:47 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

You are dangerously playing with fire.
To claim the above is to open up a battle with HaShem himself.
How about an investigation where the shortcomings of ourselves are in focus?

I do think that many men aren't taking their responsibility of learning seriously enough. They should take it as seriously as a job!! If they don't then they are not deserving of the kollel stripend for sure.

And the answer to the question posed by the newspaper is probably the above. No one is questioning actual Torah to protect but it comes along with a moral army and commitment to authentic learning.

I know too many stories of weird kollelim situations but I don't want to write about it here.

amother

Wandflower

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:33 am

amother OP wrote:

After todays ruling- are the yeshiva bochurim that could be drafted going to learn in the US?

In Navi Hashem warns that its a privilege to live in EY, and when we don't behave He kicks us out. Do we realize that its a gift that can be taken away at any moment? That Moshiach is not here? That we're still in galus? Tifrach and Ponovich and Wolfson etc are not going to enlist en masse, its not going to happen. So what is going to happen?

First, why would they go to america? Thats not even the easiest place to go to if they would actually decide to leave. I dont think anyone will.
Second, what I think will happen, unfortunately, will be mass demonstration and nothing good, at least at the onset.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 11:51 am

The way I see it is that the chareidi world hasnt demonstrated that they really believe that their learning is protecting the land. Come on, the country is at war. There should be 24/7 mishmar of people learning. Just like soldiers on guard. no bein hazmanim or Friday afternoons off.

Instead it's business as usual. maybe there was 1 day less of bein hazmanim while the soldiers have been in Gaza & North nonstop since 10/7! And all the people only learning a few hours a day. Dont we think that the chilonim and hesder people see that?

DH is a huge masmid. he learns constantly. But I see what's going on with lots of other kolel people. I'm sure the gedolim learn constantly. They are for sure supporting & protectitng. But is everyone else? Like an army?

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:30 pm

amother Lawngreen wrote:

They can go do other jobs besides army if not Torah. Why Army? To become a priority for Hamas when looking fo rhostages or put your life in danger every day?

In Israel the army isn't a job, its an obligation. Everyone has to serve in the army. Its an obligation that is a privilege the time has come for the whole nation to have a share in that privilege.
And again, it's not either Torah or army. I saw a picture today of a rosh yeshiva of a DL yeshiva gevoha serving in Aza. We have proved that you can be gedolei Torah and gibborei Yisrael, it doesn't contradict, it goes together. For 2000 years, since Bar Kochva, there was no such thing as a Jewish soldier protecting the Land of Israel, but now we are back, and the Torah that was limited only to the confines of the beit midrash for so many years can now be revealed in all of its breadth. Including on the battlefield

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:57 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

This is a terrible day for the state of Israel and the Jewish people.
They are really lighting themselves and the state on fire. I am scared for the danger that they have brought on all of us living here now.
A terrible day.
They are removing zechisim that are keeping us safe.
To me these people are really reshaim mamash.

Ooof, but they aren't! There is no reason why people can't carry on learning Torah. There is no reason why the chareidi world can't reach agreements with the army about combining Torah learning with army service. I agree that the Supreme Court have absolutely no good intentions (in this area or any other), but the truth behind all the hype is that this isn't a decree against Torah but a way to make it possible for us to continue to defend Eretz Yisrael, as the Torah itself commands us to do

Jewishmom8

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:59 pm

someone wrote:

never never agree.
not one boy or man should stop learning.
not one

iyar

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:59 pm

amother OP wrote:

I’ll take a stab at your last question- what’s going to happen?
I’d predict - not much we haven’t seen before.
First and foremost, a lot of loud demonstrations and traffic jams.
Next, and also nothing unusual, lot of politicians saying things that don’t actually make sense but promote their party’s position and of course- their own political position. The prime minister is mainly afraid of his government falling. His political survival is top priority. There will be a lot of manipulation towards keeping the current government in power.
There might be major concessions to chareidi knesset members (see goal above - keep government in power). Usually that’s done with funding. It’s like bribing your kids with nosh, not the healthiest option but it works. The problem with that is we’re in middle of a very costly war. It’s not so easy to find the funds. Lucky for the government, they’re not like you and me. They don’t have to balance their budget and be scared of falling into debt. So we’ll probably see money exchanging hands, or very likely we won’t see because they won’t do it in a way we can all see it.
Subtly and quietly legislation will continue to be passed to raise the age at which miluimnikim are dismissed from service and to extend terms of service, both in the regular army and in miluim. The army does need more manpower and chareidim won’t enlist en masse anytime soon.
There will be a lot of heated rhetoric (things like “we’d rather die than enlist” which comes across much better in Hebrew, and on the other side, “Chareidim are leeches”).
The army could try to to make Tzahal more user friendly for chareidim. Hertzi Halevi is not responsible to make sure every guy who enlists with a kippa leaves wearing a kippa, but the army can do a better job creating a framework that recognizes the skills and needs of the chareidi population. I don’t know if what I described in this last paragraph will actually happen, it’s more like wishful thinking.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:59 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

You are dangerously playing with fire.
To claim the above is to open up a battle with HaShem himself.
How about an investigation where the shortcomings of ourselves are in focus?

Perhaps it's neither, but the Sinas Chinum and fighting among ourselves to blame

It's easy to blame the soldiers - in green uniforms as well as those sitting and learning. But the soldiers aren't the problems, it's our infighting that causes us to lose Hashems protection.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:01 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

never never agree.
not one boy or man should stop learning.
not one

Not stop learning, take a break from full time learning to go participate in a milchemet mitzva, and then go back to full time learning.
If they don't, who will protect us from the numerous threats on all sides? The army is literally short of soldiers. And the higher the percentage of chareidim in the general population, the more necessary it will become.

someone

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:03 pm

iyar wrote:

The army could try to to make Tzahal more user friendly for chareidim. Hertzi Halevi is not responsible to make sure every guy who enlists with a kippa leaves wearing a kippa, but the army can do a better job creating a framework that recognizes the skills and needs of the chareidi population. I don’t know if what I described in this last paragraph will actually happen, it’s more like wishful thinking.

I know first hand that behind the scenes there are genuine efforts being made to try and create frameworks in the army that are suitable for chareidim. There are frum high-ranking officers working on it with people in the chareidi world. I think most people understand that if the army genuinely wants chareidim to join the army they have to provide them with a suitable framework to do so.

iyar

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:06 pm

someone wrote:

I don’t know if I’d necessarily choose Bar Kochva as a character we want to introduce into this discussion. I know he’s one of the people in our rich history that secular Israelis like to remember, but he’s not a shining example of what we want our sons to be. Chas veshalom any of them turn out that way.

Jewishmom8

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:06 pm

someone wrote:

I get you, but this is not categorized as a milchemet mitzvah. It is a milchama, a real one.
There is a famous video going around from R landau who spoke on this.
This entire country's existence is not a teva-based one. It never was and it never will be.

amother

Lawngreen

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:10 pm

someone wrote:

If I find another previlige where I will feel more safe can you please pardon me this one?

iyar

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:16 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

We don’t understand Hashem’s ways and can’t know why tragedies like October 7 happened. We do have Torah sources that give us an idea what causes us to be punished as a nation. I know it’s popular to say that hatred for our fellow Jews caused the churban. There are also a few sources in the Torah that talk about the land throwing out its inhabitants (the word used is more like the land vomiting them out). Those sins are mentioned both in the case of the Cnaanim as a reason they were thrown out, and as a warning in case we continue those behaviors after we live in the land. They don’t involve infighting or us not being nice to each other.

leah233

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:17 pm

Realistically speaking, whatever your view on who should be drafted is, this ruling can only bring disaster for all involved. No one would consider drafting Arabs and this isn't much different. You can disagree with them but the Chariedim vehemently opposes drafting Yeshiva Bochurim and won't back down. Having an unelected group (the supreme court) that has been consistently and invariably hostile to them where (unlike the Arabs) they have zero representation , make a decision which breaks the status quo that existed as long as Israel does, that in their view will so terribly impact their life and values borders on a declaration of war.

Where is the "reasonableness'" the Israeli Supreme Court ostensibly uses whenever they feel like forcing a decision against what was voted on by the elected representatives of the Israeli public?

And to be clear I do think the Chareidim do need to work out some compromise on this issue (that does not include drafting those who are learning) But this edict is a recipe for disaster! Even in relation to achieving it own ostensible goals

Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:41 pm; edited 4 times in total