sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

↑ pearswood12

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 1:24 am

sequoia wrote:

You know, freidasima, I can wear what I want, read what I want, watch what I want, and make my own decisions about birth control. But looking at my own life, at the world, at history, at Jewish history makes me wonder if Hashem is a benevolent being. I have no doubt of His existence and little doubt of His omnipotence. But I have serious doubts about His goodness.

And THAT is what I mean by struggling with emunah.

Not everything is about MO vs chareidi. These are philosophical questions that every human has, and it's much easier for atheists because they can say, everything is random, there is no good and creative Force in the world responsible for everything. But we do believe, or are supposed to believe in such a thing.

Look at our world, how the southern hemisphere. How children starve and nobody minds because they're the wrong color. How dictators butcher and slaughter their population and nobody minds, nobody intervenes.

Look at Russian history, how over 70 years the best were tortured, executed, how there was a culling and by the end of that culling all that was left was chaff.

Look at Jewish history, how we were oppressed everywhere we went, the Crusades, the Chmelnitsky pogroms (he is considered a hero in some parts of Ukraine), the Holocaust, and Israel was founded and everyone thought, finally, we'll be safe here. And no, not a moment's ro, not a moment's peace.

Any thinking, breathing, feeling person would have trouble believing in an omnipotent, just, and good G-d when she looks at the world. But we, as religious people, can't even take solace in the idea of atheism.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 2:07 am

amother wrote:

marina wrote:

Quote:

For those who really care to improve their emunah, there's a segulah: to say the 13 Ikrim (Ani Mamins) of the Rambam daily.

Yep, that's what I'm going to go do just now, say the 13 ikarim over and over again until I get it.

op here

thats why I want a sub forum

I'm a different amother from this thread, who was against a closed forum, and I still think that even with posts like this, this thread as a whole went very nicely. There will always be a few posts that some of us won't appreciate, but it's still worth it. There are imamothers who are extremely knowledgeable and wise, some have very worthwhile things to say and have really thought these issues through. And there are some that aren't so I ignore those posts.

Personally I don't feel trapped in my lifestyle at all and I'm chareidi. I don't have a problem with male dominance. I get a lot of satisfaction from my role. I do space my kids as per my chareidi rav. And I'm not sooo chareidi that DH and I have to buy into every mishugas either.

My problems are with the basics. How do we know that Hashem exists? I know there are proofs, but there are very smart believe who believe and there are very smart people who are atheists. Sequoia, I have the opposite issue. Once I know that G-d exists, I don't have such problem with the concept of that we don't understand why there is suffering.

I also don't know how we know Matan Torah and the other stories in the Torah really happened. Please, nobody type out the Kuzari shpiel. I know it by heart.

Sometimes I wonder if Yiddishkeit developed as a result of the times, and now that we understand how the world works better, there's no need for a G-d to explain everything. And other times I can't believe the world evolved randomly.

The fact is that had I not been born frum, I probably wouldn't believe that there's a supernatural being and that anything other than the physical world exists. I am just not that type.

Someone asked why some people believe so strongly and others have issues. I also once believed without a doubt. When you are living and breathing yiddishkeit, it is so real, it just never occurs that it might not be true. One day it just popped into my head that maybe it's not and it was downhill from there.

So those are my issues in a nutshell. Everything really stems from there. The garbage going on the in frum community doesn't really have a bearing on this. So I have a feeling that a private forum would degenerate into a Failed Messiah type of forum, with all the flaws of the frum community being discussed. I am not so cynical and I can't stand those blogs. There are enough of them. I know enough good frum people not to be completely disillusioned by the stupid people.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 3:40 am

amother wrote:

I'm the most recent amother and I had another difficulty that maybe someone can help me with.

when I look around at the big wide world out there, and I see so many nations and cultures that are removed from Yiddishkeit and even monotheism. It just doesn't make sense to me why that would be, if Yiddishkeit is the true religion.
There are millions of people out there who live and die and were never exposed to Jews or monotheism. It makes it hard to believe that the world was created for Am Yisrael for the purpose of recognizing Hashem.

you have the answer in your question. other religions come and go, but monotheism is still strong. Why? Because other religions - especially with many gods - don't last, because they have no logic. Monotheism is the only concept that has logic, especially judaism (since christianity is not completely monotheistic), that is why it is still around while other religions are often not.
Many people are monotheistic without recognizing it. I have christian friends, who I ask - how do you come to terms with the whole concept of father, son, holy spirit, and there is also virgin mary? They answer that they don't really realize how it functions and who is the Boss, but they believe in G-d as a higher power that rules everything and runs the Universe.
So how is it different from Judaism? Many many people simply believe in 1 power aka Hashem, so they accept Jewish philosophy without practicing anything.
I ahve also encountered people who are truly polytheistic - my cleaning lady believes in Nature and multiple natural powers. I also have true Buddhist idol worshippers next door. Once upon a time my dh came around for something with my little baby. They were so enchanted with the baby that they took a fruit (that was an offering) from Buddha and gave it to my baby. So what standing do their own gods have in their system, if it is so easy to take the offering away from them? Rolling Eyes

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 3:48 am

amother wrote:

Thanks for responding.
My question is more - what is the point of all those nations existing at all, if the point of the world is to recognize Hashem.

↑ sequoia ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 3:58 am

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

Suppose, instead of a borderline apikorus type forum, we had a philosophical issues forum? One where we can discuss everything -- Biblical criticism, Jewish history, science, psychology. I think that focus would prevent it from degenerating into a petty "I hate this particular meshugah of my community" whine-fest.

Isn't that what the Intellectual forum is for?

This will only help people if there are good answers out there. Otherwise it could have the opposite effect and strengthen the doubters' doubts.

I've had great discussions on the intellectual stuff and Judaism forums.

What I am looking for, though, is a forum where we can discuss Judaism and religious topics without necessarily "looking for answers" -- although philosophical discussions are always a search for truth. It's not really about either affirming or assuaging doubts. It's about having conversations about the things that matter the most, bringing to these dialogues the kind of critical outlook we'd bring to any other area of human endeavor.

For example lately I've been wondering -- does ethical monotheism necessarily entail a contractual relationship? Is Deism a viable position?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 6:49 am

Quote:

schar vonesh
heaven and hell
bad things happening to good pple
drabbonan and deoraisa
male dominance (although to be fair its in the secular world as well)
medrashim
emunas chachomim (yes even MO rabbonim)
being the "chosen" nation
the format of our davening (how many times are we supposed to say the same thing over and over and over again)
and the all time favorite - mikvah, niddah status, impure versus pure....

What will inspire me or your neighbour may not be what will inspire you. I can't believe there is no rav, no speaker, no shiur, no shitta that feels right to you! You must go on searching!

Personally
I had a problem with the concept of bad things happening to good people until I read what I needed to read. I feel much more able to accept things now.
Male dominance, truly I don't feel it. I love my place, I love my rights, my duties don't feel heavy to me.
Once I found a good mikve, my problem with mikve disappeared. But again my shitta doesn't go crazy on preps.
Format of davening, I think my issues come from a lack of learning. That's why I am bored and can't appreciate.

Again in a different shitta I may have problem with all the things above + many others.
So for you too it maybe a problem of shitta or community.

Quote:

Any thinking, breathing, feeling person would have trouble believing in an omnipotent, just, and good G-d when she looks at the world. But we, as religious people, can't even take solace in the idea of atheism.

It's interesting because to me there is a lot of solace in thinking it's all part of a bigger thing and every has a reason.
If it was random, OMG. I'm not sure I would want to live in a world where such things happen.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 8:02 am

Chloe wrote:

Quote:

Having a baby every year - well, nothing I can say about that. You'll never hear about rabbanim giving heterim, or even advising spacing kids. Oh, never. (edited to insert the twisted emoticon)

Are you being serious? Which understanding and well versed Rav doesn't give a heter for birth control? How many people do you know having kids every year? I know a tiny minuscule percentage, maybe.
If that's an issue you're struggling with amother then please go speak to a competent, compassionate Rav.

After I had my second child (I had 2 girls then) I asked the rav for a heter to take a break. I had really bad sciatica and I wanted to take a year to get physical therapy, get strong, etc. I did not get the heter, no break at all, and I ended up getting pregnant after a whole year had passed anyway. I accepted the situation as hashgacha pratis but my therapist at the time (frum lady) was VERY ANGRY that I didn't get a heter and told me to find another rav! shock

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 9:55 am

pearswood12 wrote:

[

Any thinking, breathing, feeling person would have trouble believing in an omnipotent, just, and good G-d when she looks at the world. But we, as religious people, can't even take solace in the idea of atheism.

Absolutely. This is what I struggle with. Apart from atrocities happening in the world, I see such personal tragedies ( in my own family too) that I cannot comprehend what G-d wants from us.
I swear at him/her/it regularly!![/quote]

I have heard, and I wish I knew that source, that that's good! If you yell at Hashem you are acknowledging His existence.
He has broad shoulders, has heard this before, and is happy for any communication from you. I wish you many opportunities to communicate with Him, opportunities that might inspire a spontaneous thank you or smile, or cheerful words. But meanwhile, keep on trucking.

↑ freidasima ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 2:33 pm

ok Marina, Sequoia and everyone else who mentioned very valid things. Here's the beauty of it. Why in the world do you think that G-d is benevolent and good? Who told you that bubbeh meiseh? Rabbis? Why don't you just read the Bible and get a picture of what G-d is. Angry, judging, destroying here and there, fire and brimstone, giving us a bunch of laws and if you don't keep them - oh boy oh boy oh boy are you going to be zapped and in the most horrible painful way. Just read shma. Second paragraph. You keep the laws, all is hunky dory. But if you don't...no rain, famine and you will RAPIDLY STARVE AND DISAPPEAR from the land he promised you. And just that you don't forget it, put it on a box on your head and your arms every days cause that's G-d For you.

You ladies who are looking for a good benevolent G-d who will have this equation : I do mitzvos, I live long happy healthy life, forget it. Never was. A bubbeh meiseh that people like to tell. We would LIKE it to be that way in fact an entire system is based on it. But anyone who has studied Jewish philosophy and has studied the different rabbis of the middle ages and their philosophical systems know what I keep writing over and over and what gets people on the board really riled up here (Marina as per what you said, you learn what to say and what not to say)....there is a very valid rabbinically based shita that there is basically no "hashgocho protis" and that exists only for real zaddikim if it exists at all. G-d gave us the laws, we keep them but why? Because he said so. C'est la vie. Not for reward because there may be no reward and truth according to that shita is that G-d doesn't care how we cover our hair, our legs or whether we do this, that or the third thing....but he created man who cares, very very much and as we live with our fellow man we know what HIS big mouth can do to us if we deviate from the straight and narrow.

The little childlike philosophies that so many of you are espousing here just don't really have a basis in Jewish philosophy or history. Sure, there are rabbonim, lots of them, who spout them, but look at Jewish thought, there are and were an equal number of chazal and chachomim and rishonim and early day achronim (ramban for example...) who don't hold from them.

So let's forget about the benevolence. No one promised you a rose garden. Man brings all the evil down on himself. When we get a tsunami that's G-d but wars? destruction? Even famine could be solved with cooperation but read Malthus. Too many people have a vested interest in that being used as population control in downtrodden areas where people have lots of poor kids. Poor in all senses.

So then ask, why daven? Really good question. Daven for you because it makes you feel good. Because you would LIKE to hope that somehow, somewhere etc. if you need something it might move the supreme being to listen.

But then again it might not. So don't kvetch if it doesn't happen and you are surrounded by evil and death and destruction and good things happen to bad people.

Welcome to the world. You daven and keep mitzvos for YOU, not for G-d. You don't want to? Don't. Therefore keep what you can and just stop sweating the rest. Will you get zapped for not keeping it? Who knows. No one has ever come back to tell us.

Now, Marina, should I have kept my mouth shut or will I get thrown off for saying what I know and have learned?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 2:40 pm

freidasima wrote:

So so much for the works that say we should be like Hashem (ma Hu chanun, af ata chanun); the Ramchal that says that Hashem created this world because He wants to give, so if we are to emulate Hashem we should go through life as givers (Rav Dessler goes on in this vein in Kuntras Hachessed).

Poor fellows, they drank the kool aid!

Tamiri ↓

Tue, Dec 14 2010, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

It's the true religion FOR JEWS. That's the long and the short of it. There are x number of Jewish souls and those are the ones who need to observe.