People are Individuals - recent shootings

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:26 am

WhatFor wrote:

As an aside, I've had Israeli relatives visit separately over the past few years, and the #1 complaint they both had about the US was about police intrusion into civilian lives. They each only stayed about a few weeks. One of them looks more ethnic than the other, and was constantly pulled over while driving and was so annoyed, saying he doesn't understand how anyone lives here. The other one didn't drive but still got stopped and spoken to by the police once. He reached for his ID and couldn't understand (in repeating his story to us) why the police officer immediately got panicked, put his hand on his revolver and said "don't do that!" We told him he's lucky he's not black because he might have gotten shot. We have a police state issue in our country, and a racial bias issue in our country, and the combination of both is tragic.
My Israeli relatives are literally calling us up now, worried about us because of police shootings. What is going on in our country is not "normal".

I hate to say it but this story is just plain ridiculous. you say one of your relatives looks ethnic and was "constantly" pulled over for no reason? Seriously? Is that your story? Lets say "constantly" means once a week. It certainly could mean more frequently. You don't even bother saying what the reason was for being pulled over. Did the cop just say....you look a bit dark so I pulled you over. Why not at least tell us both sides to the story, even though there might be a little bias coming from a relative, but at least try! No, your story is my relative was constantly pulled over because he looked ethnic. Yeah, I'm sure that's the whole story.
And I have good news for you! I know people don't like hearing statistics but you can calm your relatives down and explain to them that the likelihood of getting killed by a cop while being pulled over is a tiny fraction of 1%. On the other hand if you accidentally wander into certain neighborhoods, you might have legitimate reason to fear for your life.

↑ Maya ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:30 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Shoshanim, I think it's time for you to just shut the h*** up. You have no idea what you are talking about.

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:38 am

youngishbear wrote:

I would be curious whether the percentage change matches the commensurate increase in white single-parent homes over the same period. Most of that is likely due to social and economic reasons like the rising divorce rate, tied to the reduced stigma of divorce and improved career options for women.

This is just to point out that when you narrow your focus to a single number (or a series of numbers out of context) you risk missing the human element of the story.

Yes, even 1 in a million is a tragedy. I can't believe a member of the Jewish nation, known to be rachmanin bnei rachmanim, would argue otherwise.

I've said many times 1 in 100,000 is a tragedy. I just don't get the single minded focus of the black community protesting people killed by cops vs. everything else. Yes, I get that its far worse for an unarmed civilian to be murdered by law enforcement who are supposed to be there to protect us. I agree with that point. But I don't believe the number of unarmed people killed per year (last year it was 102 and certainly many were justified even unarmed) justify what is clearly the #1 cause for outrage in the black community. I think there are 16 protests in various cities organized the past few days. How many times prior to these events do you think the black community organized 16 events to protest that almost 4500 blacks were murdered by fellow blacks last year. Again, I get that when law enforcement is responsible its far worse, but I suspect that the outcry for their other issues pales in comparison to when they can scream about cops killing black people.

↑ youngishbear ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:46 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

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I've said many times 1 in 100,000 is a tragedy. I just don't get the single minded focus of the black community protesting people killed by cops vs. everything else. Yes, I get that its far worse for an unarmed civilian to be murdered by law enforcement who are supposed to be there to protect us. I agree with that point. But I don't believe the number of unarmed people killed per year (last year it was 102 and certainly many were justified even unarmed) justify what is clearly the #1 cause for outrage in the black community. I think there are 16 protests in various cities organized the past few days. How many times prior to these events do you think the black community organized 16 events to protest that almost 4500 blacks were murdered by fellow blacks last year. Again, I get that when law enforcement is responsible its far worse, but I suspect that the outcry for their other issues pales in comparison to when they can scream about cops killing black people.

Please explain.

Who would be the target of an anti-crime protest?

Shall we all stand up and protest ISIS? What exactly would change?

Crime (black-on-black or otherwise) won't be stopped by protests. Many brilliant minds have applied themselves to the task of figuring out what would. But protesting "crime" is unlikely to change a thing.

Protesting police brutality is the first step in the democratic process of bringing change in the government.

I am scratching my head trying to understand why you believe it to be a misplaced priority when it may be the only problem that this method can be applied to.

out-of-towner

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:00 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

My (very much white, though ironically with African roots) husband was once driving home from college as a Bochor, and pulled over for a very stupid reason, like something like not signaling before changing lanes. He was driving his red pickup truck (which had two rows of seats) with a few guys sitting buckled up in the back and out of state plates. He claims that the officer was most likely just curious about a red pickup truck with Southern plates filled with Frum guys, and he is probably right. So yes, people get pulled over by cops sometimes for no good reason. Stop and frisk is a real thing, and there is no denying that the blacks get the brunt of it. If you cannot accept that, then you are a moron.

It's sad that my black aquaintences have a very real reason to learn from a young age what to do if you are ever approached by a cop. It instills a real fear into them, and it's sad, as cops are really there to protect us. But it's something that all blacks, even the educated and upstanding ones, face.

Fox ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:28 am

marina wrote:

I have seen this so many times. Jews who live in urban, high poverty areas conclude that the poor urban AA males around them reflect all AAs nationwide.

These Jews have simply not spent time in middle class or upper class neighborhoods. They've never met black pple who are lawyers, doctors, professors, architects, chemists, engineers. They've met black pple but only in poverty settings. They can't even imagine working under a smarter, more experienced AA professional.

The problems in the black community that you are all discussing here are related more to poverty than to race. These problems exists similarly in poor white communities.

This, I believe, is a two-way street and is the key to the problem of bad law enforcement outcomes.

Colds and Pneumonia
Growing up in a university community, I think I must have been 10 or 11 before I met a black person without a doctorate or at least a master's degree. I mean, I knew they existed, but who'd ever met one? Likewise, the kids of those black professors grew up in an insulated environment where having dark skin might be a disadvantage, but less so than having, say, dyslexia.

So while I cringe when I hear racist rantings from fellow Jews, I also remind myself that most of them had the inverse of my experience. Instead of abandoning urban areas as part of "white flight," their parents stayed and provided economic stability at a time when many of their critics were busy being driven to the mall.

A number of posters have written about various problems in the black community, and having spent the first 20 years of my career working in black-owned or black-dominated organizations, I can assure you that their criticisms don't even come close to some of the opinions of my former bosses and coworkers. Chris Rock's famous, "Black People versus N*****s" didn't come out of nowhere.

Believe me, people in the black community are perfectly aware of the problems, and the vast majority do what they can, both as individuals and through organized efforts, to make things better.

However, there is an old saying: "When the white man catches a cold, the black man catches pneumonia." In other words, problems in the black community in America have historically been a bellwether for problems in predominantly white communities. Charles Murray, in Coming Apart documented this very well.

The Connection to Law Enforcement
To a large degree, people in law enforcement have the same problem as people living in urban areas. They spend most of their time inside vehicles, and they don't have much opportunity to spend time with normal, law-abiding citizens. It doesn't take much time in a squad car before everyone begins to look like a felony waiting to happen.

And that's how law enforcement mistakes -- including fatal ones -- happen. The experiences of Quanell X, a New Black Panthers leader are informative:

Quanell X Trains with Houston Police

The answer isn't necessarily more training or simply using tasers. The answer is to get police out of their squad cars and interacting within the community. That is what gives them the experience to tell a probably-good guy from a probably-bad guy. That is what enables them to defuse situations before weapons are drawn. And that is a big part of the strategy William Bratton has used, as indicated in the article Marina linked.

Police brutality in general follows a so-called hockey stick distribution: a small number of officers are responsible for a disproportionate number of problems. Obviously, those officers have to go, and that's precisely what Bratton did in L.A.

Chi-Raq and Unintended Consequences
Although I don't travel much anymore, I regularly talk on the phone with people from all over the U.S. Often they'll ask me where I'm based, and I'll say, "Chicago." I hear their quick intake of breath, and sometimes they'll say, "Oh, my!" Needless to say, the Chicago they read about is one where law enforcement consists of carting away the bodies. In reality, 85 percent of the homicides occur in just 5 percent of the geographical area. Neither WRP nor Peterson Park happens to be in that 5 percent.

The primary cause, of course, is gang warfare. One of the reasons the problem has gotten worse is that many of the older gang leaders have been imprisoned in the last decade. Not only have gangs splintered, but they are often led by young men without experience or judgment. They would rather shoot a rival over a perceived insult than live another day to make money on drugs, etc. RICO has turned out not to be such a great friend to Chicago.

It's easy to take the position of the lock-'em-up-and-throw-away-the-key conservative. It's equally easy to take the position of the sociology-informed liberal. The truth is that what works in race relations, law enforcement, and potty training is honestly evaluating what works and what doesn't -- and doing what works, even if it goes against logic, intuition, or our desire to feel good about ourselves.

↑ FranticFrummie

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:30 am

Tip for anyone who travels with a handgun. If you are pulled over, put your hands UP, and keep them there, while you declare you are carrying a weapon. DO NOT put them down until the officer tells you to.

You do not announce a weapon while you are reaching into your pocket. This is what is known as a Grave Tactical Error. It's also a simple mistake, but as we've seen, a deadly one.

Anyone who is carrying should absolutely know this rule, for everyone's protection and safety. When I used to carry, if someone wanted to give me a ride, I always told them before I got into the car "I am carrying a weapon. If we get pulled over for any reason, this is what we have to do. If you are not comfortable with this, I will understand." None of my friends had any problem with knowing that I was carrying, or the "Hands up until all-clear" rule.

I absolutely HATE that in most states that allow you to buy guns, you do not have to take a safety course that is taught by off duty police officers. I did, and it was money well spent. It really needs to be mandatory before you are given a CWP.

↑ gold21 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 12:53 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

100 percent agree

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 1:28 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Interesting. Except that I have also met many black people who are lawyers, doctors, social workers, professors, etc. so I fail to see your point in regards to that.
Are you aware of the fact that many Frum, Jewish people live in the projects? Because I grew up in the projects among poor Jewish people yet there was no violent crime, drugs, gangs, etc. How is that possible? They are poor as well and live in the projects so they should be involved in all sorts of criminal activities just like anyone else living in the projects. Oh wait, they are not black so they wouldn't be able to blame their problems on white people so maybe that is what keeping them from committing violent crime, dealing/doing drugs, gangs, etc?

Our poor have their own problems. Many of them. Financial crimes including tax fraud, welfare fraud, section 8 fraud. Crimes against children including child abuse, child molestation, child educational neglect, Do I need to go on?

I don't understand why you are focusing on their problems. Is it because you really think that if a poverty-stricken group has problems, they don't deserve to bring national attention to bigotry against that group?

Think about what you're saying.