Speak no Evil | Imamother

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:04 am

taketwo wrote:

I don't need to apologize. You are allowed to explain yourself and say you're not coming from an ignorant place. It sure sounds like you and Fox are. Since all the mental health professionals and the victims of s-xual abuse I know, all think very differently from you two.

Of course there is no need for a person throwing out derogatory terms to apologize. I should be the one apologizing for even thinking like that.

I dont need to explain myself to anyone. Nor do I need to disclose anything either to be able to offer a counter opinion to yours. Just because you don't agree with that, and the people 'you know' don't agree with it, doesn't mean there aren't other valid opinions out there as well. Talk about ignorance...

I further challenge you to bring forward mental health professionals who won't agree with my statement - that its community gossip that holds people back from coming forward.

As for victims of abuse, are you seriously stating that all victims think alike and make the exact same choices? Seriously? Talk about ignorance again.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:04 am

allthingsblue wrote:

In many communities, the infrastructure only begins to be built after much noise is made online and in other forums by community members about the topic.

I wish you were right. Like I said, I've been watching these threads since 2007, and I've seen almost no change. Just a lot of mock outrage.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:08 am

Fox wrote:

You seem to have our roles reversed. You are the one advocating for details to be discussed so publicly that friends and neighbors can easily figure out victims' identities -- as opposed to allowing individual victims the agency to decide how public they wish to be.

If someone needs to "process" a particular tragedy, she needs to do so privately in a way that does no additional harm.

Here's my suspicion: I suspect most people who read my harsh words against gossiping about tragedies secretly realize that, yes, they were simply gossiping and feel some embarrassment over it. They aren't one iota more enlightened about abuse than they were before, and they've done zilch to make their communities safer.

That is so false. I can't even.

I have not been discussing any details of the actual abuse. The only abuse I'm discussing is the abuse of silencing victims.

Until your posts, I have made all the effort to talk respectfully. I have not called cw any names. I have not discussed details of what he did to his victims.

Your comments and others on this thread have hurt me to such an extreme that I am struggling to opt out.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:10 am

taketwo wrote:

And haven't your comments done the same?

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:11 am

jkl wrote:

A. I'm not saying you need to apologize. Don't put words into my mouth.

B. I did not say anywhere that I am talking for all victims. Nor, did I say all victims react the same.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:12 am

taketwo wrote:

Precisely who are these mental health professionals advocating that victims should be outed within their communities against their will and that every abuse victim should be treated the same?

On the contrary, the psychologists who've worked with the special Chicago bais din that handles issues of abuse have consistently said the opposite -- that victims need to do what's right for *them* -- not what makes it easier for others to "process."

How do I know this? Because we've had a number of asifas -- for which the yeshivas even cancelled kollel sedorim -- where this was addressed. Far more informative and factual than people gossiping about individual abuse cases.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:13 am

jkl wrote:

And haven't your comments done the same?

I have not name called. The worse I did was assume ignorance.

I stayed respectful for very long after all sorts of names were called for people who dare to talk about the topic.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:13 am

taketwo wrote:

A. I'm not saying you need to apologize. Don't put words into my mouth.

B. I did not say anywhere that I am talking for all victims. Nor, did I say all victims react the same.

Then explain:

"Since all the mental health professionals and the victims of s-xual abuse I know, all think very differently from you two"

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:14 am

Fox wrote:

You are an expert at twisting my words.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:15 am

jkl wrote:

Then explain:

"Since all the mental health professionals and the victims of s-xual abuse I know, all think very differently from you two"

I know. Read upthread where I specifically wrote everyone reacts differently.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:15 am

taketwo wrote:

I have not name called. The worse I did was assume ignorance.

I stayed respectful for very long after all sorts of names were called for people who dare to talk about the topic.

And assuming ignorance is not derogatory? - and I quote:

'Where are you taking your ignorant assumptions from?'

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:16 am

taketwo wrote:

If you have not been discussing details connected to any specific case, then this thread has nothing to do with you.

I'm not sure why you equate avoiding potential gossip with "silencing victims." On the contrary, more victims are likely to come forward if they know their stories will be taken seriously by a beis din knowledgeable in such matters as opposed to being fodder for everyone's chatter.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:17 am

taketwo wrote:

I know. Read upthread where I specifically wrote everyone reacts differently.

In that case, why do you assume other opinions are 'ignorant assumptions'. If you were to believe that you wouldn't be so quickly to assume that other opinions are ignorant.

↑ allthingsblue ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:17 am

jkl wrote:

And assuming ignorance is not derogatory? - and I quote:

'Where are you taking your ignorant assumptions from?'

You assumed that victims don’t come forward for fear of being community fodder when in fact what they fear is denial, lauding their abuser, shaming, being ostracized, etc.

Talking about the case in the context that it happened- A abused B - is not what they fear.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:19 am

jkl wrote:

And assuming ignorance is not derogatory? - and I quote:

'Where are you taking your ignorant assumptions from?'

Not nearly as bad as being called a liar and more. It was a question. Remove the word ignorant and feel free to answer.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:19 am

taketwo wrote:

You are an expert at twisting my words.

I wrote upthread what I believe. What parts do you disagree with? What parts do you think mental health professionals would disagree with? How is avoiding potentially harmful gossip akin to silencing victims?

↑ iyar ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:19 am

taketwo wrote:

You are an expert at twisting my words.

This is what I meant when I said that eloquence is a gift that can be used to do good things or the opposite. Like all gifts it needs to be handled with care.

↑ allthingsblue ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:20 am

How is this gossip?
Isn’t the point of these conversations to drive home:
Trust none. Always take precautions.

Teach your kids well about personal safety.

Help them process this if they need.

Let people know not to be afraid to report a powerful person. They will be believed, not shamed and ridiculed.

There are many lessons to be learned from this particular story.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:20 am

jkl wrote:

In that case, why do you assume other opinions are 'ignorant assumptions'. If you were to believe that you wouldn't be so quickly to assume that other opinions are ignorant.

When I hear silencing of victims, which as a victim, and all the victims I KNOW, find extremely painful, the assumption is those people are not victims. Unless they state otherwise.

Last edited by taketwo on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:20 am

allthingsblue wrote:

I respectfully disagree - and I'm not assuming.