What's the halachah? Can an 11 year participate in a mixed..

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↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 10:30 am

Quote:

I will have tomatoes thrown at me, but I actually think that coed classes is a very good idea.

And I'm opposed to co-ed classes, but not for religious reasons.

Barbara ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 10:53 am

[quote="Ruchel"]Of course kodesh is separated! even in MO schools kodesh & gym is separated...

Quote:

Maybe where you live. Maybe some. Maybe even a lot. But most of the MO schools I know are co-ed for all subjects, at least through 8th grade. Even a lot of MO high schools are co-ed.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 12:20 pm

micki wrote:

so explain to me how our school ( I do not approve) but they have mixed classes.
till 4th grade they are together for everything and till 7th they have english together.
how is that allowed?

I'm assuming it's not a Lubavitch school, since the Rebbe has stated his opinion many times about this. (separate schools, or camp programs, and under certain not ideal circumstances, at the very least separate classes over certain age, much much younger than bar-bas mitzvah). How? Imaonwheels explained, they are relying on heterim, which are only heterim even by those who hold by them.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 12:59 pm

[quote="Barbara"]

Ruchel wrote:

Of course kodesh is separated! even in MO schools kodesh & gym is separated...

Quote:

Maybe where you live. Maybe some. Maybe even a lot. But most of the MO schools I know are co-ed for all subjects, at least through 8th grade. Even a lot of MO high schools are co-ed.

sure, co ed except gym and kodesh since boys will need Gemara and stuff like this

↑ Ruchel

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:00 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

micki wrote:

so explain to me how our school ( I do not approve) but they have mixed classes.
till 4th grade they are together for everything and till 7th they have english together.
how is that allowed?

I can think of chabad schools mixed until the end. Ok they are out of town, but still.

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:31 pm

[quote="Ruchel"]

Barbara wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Of course kodesh is separated! even in MO schools kodesh & gym is separated...

Quote:

Maybe where you live. Maybe some. Maybe even a lot. But most of the MO schools I know are co-ed for all subjects, at least through 8th grade. Even a lot of MO high schools are co-ed.

sure, co ed except gym and kodesh since boys will need Gemara and stuff like this

Are you really telling her that she has never seen co-ed schools before, just because you have not seen them?

In my community one of the schools is mixed for all subjects until fifth grade and another two are mixed for all subjects until seventh grade. Then many of the kids go on to a co-ed high school where they are mixed for all subjects including Gemara. There are many other schools like this in the NY area. Accept that.

princessleah

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:40 pm

[quote="cassandra"]

Ruchel wrote:

Barbara wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Of course kodesh is separated! even in MO schools kodesh & gym is separated...

Quote:

Maybe where you live. Maybe some. Maybe even a lot. But most of the MO schools I know are co-ed for all subjects, at least through 8th grade. Even a lot of MO high schools are co-ed.

sure, co ed except gym and kodesh since boys will need Gemara and stuff like this

Yes, the HS I went to (not in NY) was co-ed for all subjects INCLUDING Gemara. The only thing we were separated for was gym. There was an electric mechitza that came down from the ceiling in the middle of the basketball court.

↑ Barbara

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:41 pm

[quote="Ruchel"]

Barbara wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Of course kodesh is separated! even in MO schools kodesh & gym is separated...

Quote:

Maybe where you live. Maybe some. Maybe even a lot. But most of the MO schools I know are co-ed for all subjects, at least through 8th grade. Even a lot of MO high schools are co-ed.

sure, co ed except gym and kodesh since boys will need Gemara and stuff like this

My son's Gemorah teacher is a woman. She's absolutely brilliant. He sits next to a girl (which, at his age, keeps him from chatting too much, but I'm sure that will change soon).

I've never asked him if gym is co-ed. In the younger grades, I know that he's had female gym teachers, but it may be different now. The only class where the boys and girls separate is called something like *life science*

↑ cassandra ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:44 pm

princessleah wrote:

I didn't mean to exclude out of NY, just speaking of what I know. Obviously one of the most famous Orthodox co-ed schools is Maimonides, which was started for Jewish educational reasons.

Temilia

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:48 pm

Don't be so quick to assume it's not a chabad school. I know a lot of chabad schools that are mixed through fifth grade, and in fifth grade most people turn eleven. And I know torah umesurah day schools that are also mixed through fifth grade, so presumably if your daughter is only eleven, I don't think it's a huge deal.

IndyMom

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 1:52 pm

have you checked out hebrewonline.com? I know they have a children's program and they have an online ulpan class. It is for sure mixed as well, but maybe it is better since they are not all in the same room? You can also do it one on one but it is more expensive.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 6:33 pm

cassandra wrote:

Quote:

I will have tomatoes thrown at me, but I actually think that coed classes is a very good idea.

And I'm opposed to co-ed classes, but not for religious reasons.

And I am opposed to it for both reasons. LOL

A lot of research has been done on co-ed versus single-gender classes, and the evidence seems pretty clear that co-ed classes are not a great idea, ESPECIALLY for girls. Boys tend to do better with girls in the class, but I think that the overall picture is that separate classes are better.

↑ cassandra

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 6:39 pm

I'm biased toward girls. Boys have enough of an advantage already.

(And having an all boy class means that the teacher can gear his/her teaching methods for boys specifically. Girls do fine with the classic teaching model, boys don't.)

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 6:46 pm

ss321 wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

Apple pie wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

For those who are insisting, why isn't this a halachic issue? Or at least a major chinuch question?

Chinuch, for sure. But Halacha? Is there ANY rabbinical authority that paskens that it is ASSUR for girls to learn in the same class with boys? I am not aware of it, but I don't know everything...

Of course there are. Rav Moshe Feinstein, for one.

True but that psak was for limudei kodesh. I dont think (correct me if I am wrong, I will ask DH to look it up if youd like) it applied to other things.

I just looked it up, and it seems like he davka says the opposite.

Quote:

Otherwise, where do we draw the line?

What do you mean? Are you trying to imply that based on that logic, men and women should never be allowed in the same vicinity? There's a big difference between a classroom and shopping at Target with your family where there will happen to be members of the opposite gender there.

Quote:

Im not saying its NOT a chinuch question, but it is more of a hashkafic question than a halachic one. Its a comfort thing. I dont think (but I will ask DH to be sure, he can look up that psak), there is any psak that is is ASSUR for a 11 year old girl and boy to be in the same room. there are other issues like yichud, tzniyus, etc, but just the taking the class together issue - it doesnt seem to be a clear cut halachic question.

R' Moshe says that he gives a heter in the case that the alternative would be for girls to go to public school. He indicates that it's a chinuch issue (which is why there can be a heter), but explains at the beginning of the teshuva that chinuch is a serious issue and it's not appropriate for children to become comfortable mingling with members of the opposite gender. He also says that if there are funds available to separate classes, there is an obligation to do so, even for young children.

↑ Crayon210

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 6:47 pm

cassandra wrote:

I'm biased toward girls. Boys have enough of an advantage already.

Indeed!

Quote:

(And having an all boy class means that the teacher can gear his/her teaching methods for boys specifically. Girls do fine with the classic teaching model, boys don't.)

That's true, I never thought of that aspect.

↑ micki

Thu, Jan 29 2009, 11:21 pm

my kids go to a torah umesorah school. it was mixed till 8th grade until a lub. parent worked really hard and lobbied for the change that was many many years ago. now the classes are so big that it makes sense space wise to split, but there are no more classrooms!

↑ amother

Fri, Jan 30 2009, 10:00 am

Original OP here. My DD sat in on a class to try it out.

Well, it ends up it would be a class with two other girls. She was at too high of a level to be with her peers in the mixed situation. So that was great. But, the female teacher is a "Rabbi". I can't call her Rabbi, Ima, it's too weird. The "rabbi" really liked her and would like her to continue....

I can't believe I even put my DD in that situation/environment....all so she can improve her Hebrew. She was very uncomfortable to say the least.

When she came home she kept repeating thank you Hashem for making me who I am. I exposed her to frei kids. I guess she's been pretty sheltered. She was shocked how they dressed. She understands that the non jewish world dresses this way....but Jewish kids??? It wasn't necessary for her to see /learn this at her age. (She's only 11, kah.)

"Ima they wear these short short skirts with there legs bare!" uuckh

All I can say is I made a big mistake! Here I was tryng to improve her Hebrew language skill, and not putting enough thought into the whole situation. And what she would be exposed too.
Bad Ima.

greenfire

Fri, Jan 30 2009, 10:45 am

there are plenty of co-ed schools
my dd learned gemara too ...

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