"My brother died at the Chabad House in Mumbai, India&q

↑ daamom

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 11:56 am

grin wrote:

hotmama wrote:

Freidasima - I totally get what you're saying. But I think that when a person is "realistic" they are perpetuating status quo. And I don't want the status quo - I want CHANGE! The first step to change is to really believe and feel that it CAN happen.

No one said it would be easy, but I think it is certainly worth working on ourselves to BELIEVE we can do it.

the only one you can ever change is yourself, and then hope and pray that the circle widens. I, for one, would like to start to change myself.

who else wants to join us, in making this forum chock-full of tolerance and real ahavas yisroel?

I'm in.

Freidasima. I hear how it's easy to lose faith in our ability to overcome this. I, too, see all the nastiness here, and it obviously exists in large degrees in chu"l as well.

But it's our chiyuv to believe that we can overcome it, and then DO IT.

Obviously, we should start right here on this board.
Any ideas on how we can do that?

What do you say Freidasima? Are you ready to leave the defeatism behind for something much more productive?

ora_43 ↓

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 1:46 pm

freidasima wrote:

That's the nature of people. Just look at the divisions on this site. You can't have the Lubavitch write openly so they get their own forum because they were rightfull sick of being bashed.
You can't have the litvish write openly so they get their own forum because they were righfully sick of being bashed. And the other chassidim, and the MO and the gerim and all the rest.

But just look at all the people who agree and get along on this site. I find myself agreeing with litvish, chassidish, and MO women all the time on here. Don't you?

Quote:

I accept that if someone says that in their love for all yidden they will take on an extra mitzva of let's say, being medakdek more about something in tznius or loshon horo or whatever. But I am yet to see them take on something that directly affects or has contact with that frei yid...not obliquely like adding a mitzva to the world will influence the Ribono shel olam to do more good, but something a bit more direct and less in the totally spiritually associative world...

Like what?

Speaking for myself, it's hard to think what I can take on that will help "that frei yid" in a direct way. Sure I have friends who aren't observant but I don't want to make a resolution about them, that's just weird, it's like making someone else a prop in my plan. I like resolutions on things like prayer, lashon hara, etc, because it's something I can do by myself, without needing others to play along.... and of course by improving myself I will improve how I relate to those around me. But if you have ideas on how to directly affect the non-frum world that's good too (or do you mean just normal stuff like volunteering?).

As for the frum and not frum being buried together, that happens all the time. I actually have yet to see a separated cemetery, all the ones I've seen so far in Beit Shemesh, Jerusalem and elsewhere are mixed. Who would care about such a thing? (unless you're talking big tzaddik next to outspoken athiest, that might be a little weird).

↑ TheBeinoni ↓

Wed, Dec 03 2008, 9:45 pm

I totally get what Freidasima is saying about what she witnesses in Israel. Honestly, that is one of the reasons I am not pushing DH for us to move to Israel. Even where we live now there is plenty of separation and judgment and even examples of sinat chinam amongst Jews.

But we must believe we can overcome it. Just by taking upon ourselves to be less judgmental. To love EVERY JEW. No matter what. And you don't have to invite frei Jews to meals or try to directly mikarev them. And we don't have to directly form new friendships with Jews from another "group" than our own. But just when you're in store, or on the street, or at a bus stop, or WHATEVER don't give another, different looking Jew a look that says "back off" or "I don't see you, I'm in my own world." Look them in the eyes and smile! Smile from your heart. It's not easy, but I certainly want to work on it.

If we are all from the same Source, all one neshama split up into people, then we must realize how natural it should be to love one another. It ain't easy. Before this tragedy I was really struggling with my own personal ahavat yisrael. I can be really judgmental. But I'm working on it. If not for our sake, then for the sake of the Holtzbergs! They were the modern day Sarah and Avraham!

↑ freidasima

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 2:22 am

First of all of course count me in!

Ora, you have obviously never seen the cemetery in Kiriyat Shaul in Tel Aviv. There they have sections for each group and I mean things you couldn't imagine.

My father a"h is buried in the section for "shomer shabbos but had a television set at home" as opposed to the "shomer shabbos but didn't have a tv at home". Can you believe it? I remember when he and my mother went to buy "mekomos bachayim" because he had family memberss buried there and as his whole family other than that was killed in Europe and has no graves, he wanted to be buried with family.

So in comes this very frum looking man to the chevra kadisha and says he wants to put down money to buy two plots, one for him and one for mother. Obviously just looking at the two of them he saw two frum yidden, and it seemed obvious to put them in the "good" section with no tv. On the way out, one of the younger CK members said "of course Reb X you don't have a television at home" and my mother, bless her turned around and said "of course we do..." and they had to call them back and change their section.

This is for real.

When he was niftar almost 16 years ago when I was at the cemetery the chevra kadisha looked at us and couldn't believe that they were about to bury him in the section for frum people with TVS! They kept asking me, maybe it was a mistake? Maybe he is supposed to be in the "really frum section"? But no, I kept telling them that it's ok. They - the ashkenazi CK in Tel Aviv is really nice btw, not money grubbers like here in Yerushalayim - kept shaking their heads and saying.."such a shame, such a frum family"...

So...there you have it.

As for what to do to be mekarev and lomed zechus for our frei brethren, let me tell you what I do, day after day as I work with so many of them and have lots of frei friends, good friends. Every time I hear them say "I'm not shomer mitzvos" and here in EY it comes up a lot, I remind them that they ARE. DO they respect their parents? Of course they do. Do they murder? Of course not. Do they committ adultery (hopefully not...) of course not! And I remind them that these are MITZVOS! And that they can say, as my father a"h taught me to say, that they don't keep "All of the mitzvos", but already they keep some. And even if they aren't keeping kashrus and shabbos, they should remember that the other things they are doing are mitzvos and whether or not they believe in Hashem, he believes in them.

At first they thought I was nuts but they got used to it. Then a good friend of mine, a total athiest son of a total athiest, very very high placed here in Yerushalayim in government, had a terrible stroke, a heart valve replacement and then an operation to take out a growth in the heart. And he is still here with us! Once I talked to him and told him that it was in the zechus of his grandfather who had learned in a yeshiva in Volyn and in the zechus of other mitzvos that he had kept without even realizing that they were mitzvos.

And do you know what he said to me? That the whole time he was going through this he realized that he may be brought up as an athiest and having trouble believing that there is a G-d, but after what he went through he has a feeling that there is something bigger than him out there. He doesn't know what it is, he doesn't know if it is "nature" or a "supreme being" or something but it's bigger than he is and he thinks about it a lot and remembers that there is something "above him". and that when he respects his mother or something like that (she just was niftar this summer at 94), he thinks sometimes about what I said, that he is alive because of the zechus of the good deeds (ma'asim tovim, as he prefers to call them) that he does and maybe there might be something in what I believe. and he does keep "some of the mitzvos".

It's a start.

StrongIma

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 4:09 am

freidasima wrote:

As for what to do to be mekarev and lomed zechus for our frei brethren, let me tell you what I do, day after day as I work with so many of them and have lots of frei friends, good friends. Every time I hear them say "I'm not shomer mitzvos" and here in EY it comes up a lot, I remind them that they ARE. DO they respect their parents? Of course they do. Do they murder? Of course not. Do they committ adultery (hopefully not...) of course not! And I remind them that these are MITZVOS! And that they can say, as my father a"h taught me to say, that they don't keep "All of the mitzvos", but already they keep some. And even if they aren't keeping kashrus and shabbos, they should remember that the other things they are doing are mitzvos and whether or not they believe in Hashem, he believes in them.

At first they thought I was nuts but they got used to it. Then a good friend of mine, a total athiest son of a total athiest, very very high placed here in Yerushalayim in government, had a terrible stroke, a heart valve replacement and then an operation to take out a growth in the heart. And he is still here with us! Once I talked to him and told him that it was in the zechus of his grandfather who had learned in a yeshiva in Volyn and in the zechus of other mitzvos that he had kept without even realizing that they were mitzvos.

And do you know what he said to me? That the whole time he was going through this he realized that he may be brought up as an athiest and having trouble believing that there is a G-d, but after what he went through he has a feeling that there is something bigger than him out there. He doesn't know what it is, he doesn't know if it is "nature" or a "supreme being" or something but it's bigger than he is and he thinks about it a lot and remembers that there is something "above him". and that when he respects his mother or something like that (she just was niftar this summer at 94), he thinks sometimes about what I said, that he is alive because of the zechus of the good deeds (ma'asim tovim, as he prefers to call them) that he does and maybe there might be something in what I believe. and he does keep "some of the mitzvos".

It's a start.

that's beautiful - I tell my kids the same thing about the " frei". Not only that, but we really don't know what hurdles they need to cross to perform what they do, either, or how dear it is in shamayim. Sometimes I think - I have it much easier, since I was brought up shomer mitzvos.

and truthfully - none of us can honestly say that we keep all 613 mitzvos - we also just do the best we can.

↑ ora_43

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 4:56 am

friedasima--
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. But please realize that your experience is not the only side of Israel there is. My dh and bil and I and most people I know have friends who are religious (both hareidi and dl) and friends who are not and friends who are not Jewish. It might not be the norm in some circles, but in my experience most people do have friends from all walks of life, people they met in the army, in university, at work, etc. So if/when you start to feel each group is completely separate, just remember there are many people out there having the exact opposite experience.

I find it sad that smiling at people should be a resolution. I'm not trying to insult the idea, which is a good one, but why would that even be an issue? Was anyone here really only smiling at "their own kind"? Or is that just something that we each imagine that other people do?

And I see what you're saying about your work friends, friedasima, but like I said I don't want to make a resolution that involves anyone beyond myself. I don't mean by that they I won't resolve to do more chessed or something like that, but I don't want to resolve "I am going to say X to Y," it just feels weird to me. I don't want to start thinking of friends who aren't religious as "my secular friends," I want them to just be "my friends," and I feel like making resolutions about how I relate specifically to them would ruin that. So if my resolution involves working on myself in a personal way instead of my interactions with specific people, that's why.

↑ TheBeinoni

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 6:41 am

ChossidMom wrote:

Boy, Hotmama - We need people like YOU in Israel! I love your attitude.

I hope you make it hear asap!

Thanks, CM! Smile

I hope we all make it there NOW! No need to buy tickets, we'll all be brought together with our shuls to greet the building of the Beit Hamikdash! Right now, I'm not strong enough to go there on my own (without Mashiach). But DH and I have it in our minds that if, cv"s, Mashiach doesn't come soon, we plan to go....we need to get stronger first though and we have a lot of work that needs to be done here. (I digress...)

Freidasima wrote:

First of all of course count me in!

I knew you'd come around! Tongue Out

But seriously, I am really sorry that your family has had to face such blatant division. I know the feeling from both sides (as I'm sure you do as well). In Israel in certain places with certain people, I'm too religious ("Ma? Why a wig? The mitpachot were not enough? Waiii at niyet mamash charedit! You became so charedi!") In Lakewood, people look at DH and me and don't get it ("She looks frum, she's got a sheitel and long skirt, very tznius and he's got jeans and a Yankee cap. Are they really together?"). At stores at the check out, cashiers are always like, "You're together??????" And we know that these reactions come from people judging us by our outward appearances. Just like with your father, they looked at him and thought "for sure he's 'one of us'" but when they double checked then they stuck him in the class B section.

We need to look past the outward appearances that divide us! We need to realize that those outward appearances, our BODIES and their manifestations, are just physical, gashmiut, NOTHING! Our essence is our NESHAMA, which from Jew to Jew is the basically the same: A JEW. Sure some have "different levels" but that is something we can never know about a person. When we look at a person as a Neshama, it is much easier to see the similarities. And just smile and be friendly to them!!!!!!!!!!

↑ gryp

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 7:35 am

Quote:

We need to look past the outward appearances that divide us! We need to realize that those outward appearances, our BODIES and their manifestations, are just physical, gashmiut, NOTHING! Our essence is our NESHAMA, which from Jew to Jew is the basically the same: A JEW. Sure some have "different levels" but that is something we can never know about a person. When we look at a person as a Neshama, it is much easier to see the similarities. And just smile and be friendly to them!!!!!!!!!!

In the Tanya 32, I mentioned, it says specifically: If the physical is the ikar, true Ahavas Yisroel will never be reached.

And Hillel (Hazakein) said, The Torah says: Love your fellow Jew as yourself, and the rest of it is commentary.

↑ Mevater

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 7:50 am

hotmama wrote:

Freidasima - no one, including the author, is advocating that we all start agreeing on one right way of Judaism, start marrying out of our groups, etc etc...

The author (I think) was trying to say that we need to just love each other because we are ALL ONE NATION. You don't have to agree with someone to love them. I don't always agree with my husband. I don't always agree with my parents. I don't always agree with a lot of people. Do you think that the Holtzbergs AGREED with the ways of some of the people they counseled? Probably not, at least on a religious level. But did they love them? OF COURSE!

One line I will never forget is that when asked how he could stand hours upon hours handing out dollars, even in his old age, the Lubavitcher Rebbe answered something to the effect of, "Each person is a diamond. How can one tire of counting diamonds?" Of course, I'm sure he didn't encourage the ways of the frei, but he still LOVED them because they were Jews, connected to our nation, our G-d, as we all are.