What makes music "Jewish"?

bookstore15 ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 9:44 am

What do you consider to be Jewish music, and why?
My father always used to sing a Hungarian song on Shabbos, that used to be a shepherds song, until a Rebbe heard it and bought it off the shepherd.
Bob Dylan is Jewish. He even had a bar mitzvah. He wrote and performed his own music, and yet somehow I don't think his music would be considered Jewish.
What about classical music? I feel like that gets a pass, but much of it is clearly not Jewish. Wagner, for example, was an anti-semite, and much of Mozart's work is religious.
What about when Jewish artists take popular songs and change the lyrics to be more Jewish? That makes it jewish music?
What if they don't change the lyrics?
Please keep this thread polite! If you don't agree with someone, that doesn't make it wrong!

Chayalle

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 9:49 am

I used to sing a certain song to my kids when they were little, from the "Mitzvah Tree" tapes. My Russian friend told me the tune is from a Russian Folk Song. Another song I sing my kids is a take-off of a love song. Probably most of the songs we sing originate from non-Jewish songs. You will have to keep your kids home from pre-school if you don't want them learning any.

I think we need to use our brains to judge what a song is doing to our souls, how it makes us think, what impression it makes on us. And I think we are capable of doing that.

Molly Weasley

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 9:54 am

It's a spectrum.
Naturally, the highest form comes from a frum person expressing their sincere love for Hashem.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are songs about relations or religious music.

When it comes to music type, the more refined and thoughtful it is, the more it elevates and inspires. On the other hand, music that is wild or chaotic can stir up impulsive, unrefined behavior.

Think of the difference between classical music, which calms and uplifts, versus rap, which can incite a more intense, unruly energy.

amother

Cantaloupe

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 10:39 am

The explanation I was given once in a shiur, is that it comes down to the emotions the music makes us feel. Music should make us feel closer to Hashem and uplifted. I know that's a little simplified as you can have quite a range of music and different people will respond differently.

amother

Aubergine ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 11:01 am

I once read a really humorous blog post from a B.Y. graduate (iirc "tales out of b.y" was the name of the blog) who was describing her experience with being involved in her school production/concert. All of the music for the dances had to be approved by the principal, who was a very frum, refined rebbetzin type. Anyway, the principal nixed several pieces as being too rocky/unrefined/not Jewish enough. The one she finally approved as sounding Jewish/frum and aidel enough was actually from an xmas song (obviously, she didn't know, she thought it was classical music, I guess). So that's what they used
I don't believe you can tell just from a melody, who composed it or what their thoughts were when composing it.

amother

Thistle

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 11:12 am

There is a difference in "Jewish music", which imo is music with Jewish themes and words and secular music that is appropriate. Which would be more like classical music. But the secular music that is appropriate will be subjective to each person.

amother

↑ Aubergine ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 11:29 am

I also think it's generational. Mishpacha magazine had a bit of a back and forth on this topic like a year ago, with both older and younger rabbanim commenting. The gist of it was, the older generation is a bit hung up on this whereas the younger generation is not. (And I do remember it being a hot workshop/hashkafa topic in the 90s and early 2000s, with our teachers/rabbanim using fire and brimstone approach to warn teens away from secular or Jewish music they deemed to be unrefined, warning it would damage our neshama etc etc.) But things seem to have shifted now, and the younger teachers/rabbanim of today are less heavy handed about it.

↑ bookstore15 ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 11:43 am

amother SandyBrown wrote:

Honestly… I think it’s about the lyrics… how can u get hung up on a tune?

I don't know, I get plenty hung up on just the music.
Ok the impression I'm getting is very subjective.
I just remember feeling so invalidated in high school, because I had "fire and brimstone" teachers, who basically said only savages like music with drums and bass, etc.

amother

↑ Aubergine ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 11:49 am

amother SandyBrown wrote:

Honestly… I think it’s about the lyrics… how can u get hung up on a tune?

Back in the day, they weren't even talking about the lyrics, it was just the melody and the idea it wasn't written by a frum person, plus of course anything that was too fast or rocky even if a frum person did compose it. They only approved of slow kumzitz type songs, which, let's face it, isn't going to cut it with kids of today. I remember a teacher ripping apart miami boys choir music as being trashy, which, looking back was really over the top (and made all of us girls who were fans feel guilty and ashamed, like we were bad for liking it but now knew we had to be secret about it).

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 11:53 am

My son's very yeshivish rabbeim have said that some of the aidel covers of non Jewish songs are better to listen to than the original songs coming out of the Jewish music scene these days.
Just saying.

amother

Topaz

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 12:04 pm

In Europe it was accepted practice to hire local gypsies to play music at weddings etc. Many if todays songs that are from the alta heim have gypsie roots.

↑ bookstore15 ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 12:38 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

In Europe it was accepted practice to hire local gypsies to play music at weddings etc. Many if todays songs that are from the alta heim have gypsie roots.

You definitely hear it if you listen to klezmer.

sequoia ↓

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 12:41 pm

amother Aubergine wrote:

I was also thinking of that blog.

amother

Bronze

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 1:20 pm

bookstore15 wrote:

That song is "Szol a Kokos" ("The Rooster Crows") and it is a beautiful song! But the story is that once the rebbe bought it, the shepherd couldn't remember it anymore. That's because it originally WAS a jewish song/tune, and it had gotten lost.

I always find it odd when frum singers start singing "A Million Dreams" from The Greatest Showman, especially at religious weddings. It's not a Jewish song!

↑ bookstore15

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 1:29 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

Yes, that's the song! My father did say that part of the story too.
But what makes it Jewish?

After writing my first post, I did do some research, and Bob Dylan, my example, has some very "religious" songs. I don't know much about him, but songs like "I believe in you", "every grain of sand" have lyrics you might find in a frum song.
So it's written by a Jewish person, about G-d, and would probably be considered refined enough by most standards. What do you think? Jewish enough?

amother

Peachpuff

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 1:35 pm

My grandparents, a mix between vieners and non chassidish hungarians survivors, had non Jewish music at their weddings during the 1950s. So I guess it all boils down to what is socially accepted or not.

amother

Mimosa

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 4:40 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Haha yeh
I love listening to uncle moishy- in the earlier CD's I recognize most tunes as non jewish...

amother

Hyacinth

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 4:58 pm

I can’t stand it when people talk about music that doesn’t have a “Jewish sound”. The sound they’re referring to is Klezmer, which is just the popular style of music a bunch of years ago. There’s nothing inherently wrong with electric guitar or intense drum beats.

amother

DarkYellow

Mon, Jan 06 2025, 5:04 pm

I can't stand klezmer or anything else with a clarinet. It whines. You know who's into klezmer big-time? Secular Jews, particularly secular Yiddishists. Jewish in the ethnic cultural sense it may be but it doesn't in any way make me feel closer to G-d.