 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Chanukah
amother
|
 Wed, Dec 25 2024, 7:16 pm
| amother Ginger wrote: | If davening really works in a practical and noticeable way, wouldn't we see it?
Meaning we'd see people who daven more getting sick less. They wouldn't have suffered as much during covid. They'd have fewer tragedies. They'd have less parnassah issues. They shouldn't struggle in shidduchim.
And the flip side should also be obvious. Those who don't daven should be getting sick more. They should be struggling in all areas of life more than those who daven.
Besides for very narrow anecdotal examples, can anyone say we see this? Do people who daven c'vs get cancer less? is thee a single obvious example anyone can point to? |
Davening is not a vending machine where you insert request and out comes the desired outcome. Do people who daven more get more requests answered? Not necessarily. Because it isn't as easy as that.
First you start with believing in Hashem. He runs the world and He makes everything happen. And once you truly believe it is all in His Hands, then you can start to accept. Why do we take for granted the good things we get and it's only the bad we don't want? Hashem has a tailor made package for each and every one of us for our lives. My life was supposed to be born to the parents I was born to, to grow up in the place I grew up and marry the person I married and all the different challenges I have been sent, that's the package I am meant to have. Both the good things and the bad things.
Teva-nature and the natural way of things is where things are fixed and a specific destiny. To use an extreme example, a person knows he was supposed to die on a specific day in a specific place. So he goes away to escape it as he doesn't want to die, and ends up dying a different way at the same time and day. Because certain things are meant to happen to us and we can't change that.
But davening is above teva and can sometimes change that destiny. Not always because we don't see the bigger picture. The classic mashal is the tapestry where we're looking at the tangled threads and scratching our heads, but we can't see the other side where it's a glorious picture.
Sometimes we can daven and daven and we are desperate for that request to be granted. But there's a strong NO from Above and that can shatter a person's emunah. I've davened and davened for months, years and dealing with such pain, why can't it end?
For a long time I used to ask why someone close to me had to die so young. For years I used to ask why, why did this have to happen? And then one day I realized I had shifted my understanding and viewpoint. I didn't need to ask why because I had accepted that there was a bigger set of shoulders than mine and the reasons were with Him. It was okay for me to not understand. I would have to live with that yes, but I had come to that point of acceptance that I didn't know best and I had to trust that He did. And it's not an overnight process.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 3
|
amother
|
Wed, Dec 25 2024, 7:42 pm
| amother Electricblue wrote: | Davening is not a vending machine where you insert request and out comes the desired outcome. Do people who daven more get more requests answered? Not necessarily. Because it isn't as easy as that.
First you start with believing in Hashem. He runs the world and He makes everything happen. And once you truly believe it is all in His Hands, then you can start to accept. Why do we take for granted the good things we get and it's only the bad we don't want? Hashem has a tailor made package for each and every one of us for our lives. My life was supposed to be born to the parents I was born to, to grow up in the place I grew up and marry the person I married and all the different challenges I have been sent, that's the package I am meant to have. Both the good things and the bad things.
Teva-nature and the natural way of things is where things are fixed and a specific destiny. To use an extreme example, a person knows he was supposed to die on a specific day in a specific place. So he goes away to escape it as he doesn't want to die, and ends up dying a different way at the same time and day. Because certain things are meant to happen to us and we can't change that.
But davening is above teva and can sometimes change that destiny. Not always because we don't see the bigger picture. The classic mashal is the tapestry where we're looking at the tangled threads and scratching our heads, but we can't see the other side where it's a glorious picture.
Sometimes we can daven and daven and we are desperate for that request to be granted. But there's a strong NO from Above and that can shatter a person's emunah. I've davened and davened for months, years and dealing with such pain, why can't it end?
For a long time I used to ask why someone close to me had to die so young. For years I used to ask why, why did this have to happen? And then one day I realized I had shifted my understanding and viewpoint. I didn't need to ask why because I had accepted that there was a bigger set of shoulders than mine and the reasons were with Him. It was okay for me to not understand. I would have to live with that yes, but I had come to that point of acceptance that I didn't know best and I had to trust that He did. And it's not an overnight process. |
We can easily see that davening is not a vending machine where you put in a quarter and the cookie comes out 2 seconds later. That's a given. The question is whether davening helps at all in getting a yes in this world.
For example during covid, did the people who davened have better outcomes than those that didn't?
Frum pregnant women daven. Do we have fewer misses than non daveners?
We all daven for health. Do frum people who daven get terminal illnesses less?
So my question isn't whether it's vending machine style. It obviously isn't. My question is whether there's an iota of help that davening offers in this world towards a yes answer from hashem. If we say there is then we have to also say that frum people get cancer less.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Wed, Dec 25 2024, 9:16 pm
| amother Ginger wrote: | Can someone explain this please?
I always read here that davening doesn't help us get things. Meaning the people who daven more aren't healthier, wealthier, or have less problems in life. And I think this is true sha obvious if we look around us. Instead, davening is about connecting and having a relationship with hashem.
But then I (very) often see threads like this which say the exact opposite. They imply that we do daven for specific things and that davening helps.
Which is it? |
Connection with Hashem is VERY hard work and once achieved the relationship is like no other. Yes, it's possible and doable. It's simple but hard at the same time. Someone who hasn't reached it might not understand or believe it. Someone who did reach this level is determined in its presence but can't prove it.
I've reached this level BH BH BH. This is how I know. The work consisted of reaching out to Him again and again in times of need. Nobody knew how much I was struggling so nobody was able to relate and help me. Except Hashem. I was hopeless and helpless. Then. Now not anymore.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
amother
|
Wed, Dec 25 2024, 9:30 pm
| amother Ginger wrote: | If davening really works in a practical and noticeable way, wouldn't we see it?
Meaning we'd see people who daven more getting sick less. They wouldn't have suffered as much during covid. They'd have fewer tragedies. They'd have less parnassah issues. They shouldn't struggle in shidduchim.
And the flip side should also be obvious. Those who don't daven should be getting sick more. They should be struggling in all areas of life more than those who daven.
Besides for very narrow anecdotal examples, can anyone say we see this? Do people who daven c'vs get cancer less? is thee a single obvious example anyone can point to? |
What you're saying is that we should get what we want more if we daven and less if we don't daven. Well, you're totally not getting it because Davening is not necessarily about getting what we want. This is only part of it. The bigger part is to be able to deal effectively with what Hashem grants us, what He has destined for us to go through. Of course we want long healthy rich life, like 1,000 plus years, but this is obviously not realistic. There are so many other things that are realistic to our human eyes but Hashem has a bigger plan, a plan we cannot fathom, which, in the end, is SOOO much more worthwhile.
Also, Hashem's plan is for the world to be a better place for eternal existence, not necessarily for our own life. So we'll have to struggle to be part of creating the better world for whatever Hashem has in plan.
As smart as we are, we're still dummies and puppets doing what Hashem decides is best. In the process, we WILL struggle.
Davening is about the connection, about building Hashem's world, not about getting what we want.
This is extremely complicated. We can not understand it in any which way or form. The bottom line is that we have to do our hishtadlus and not think so much about stuff that are out of our reach.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Wed, Dec 25 2024, 9:47 pm
| amother Papaya wrote: | What you're saying is that we should get what we want more if we daven and less if we don't daven. Well, you're totally not getting it because Davening is not necessarily about getting what we want. This is only part of it. The bigger part is to be able to deal effectively with what Hashem grants us, what He has destined for us to go through. Of course we want long healthy rich life, like 1,000 plus years, but this is obviously not realistic. There are so many other things that are realistic to our human eyes but Hashem has a bigger plan, a plan we cannot fathom, which, in the end, is SOOO much more worthwhile.
Also, Hashem's plan is for the world to be a better place for eternal existence, not necessarily for our own life. So we'll have to struggle to be part of creating the better world for whatever Hashem has in plan.
As smart as we are, we're still dummies and puppets doing what Hashem decides is best. In the process, we WILL struggle.
Davening is about the connection, about building Hashem's world, not about getting what we want.
This is extremely complicated. We can not understand it in any which way or form. The bottom line is that we have to do our hishtadlus and not think so much about stuff that are out of our reach. |
I hear you but I feel we are talking past each other. I can 100% agree with everything you wrote. But this isn't my question or topic at all.
My question is whether davening helps get a yes from hashem at all. Even a little. Meaning frum women who daven have fewer miscarriages than others.
During Covid people that davened got covid less frequently (and severe) than others.
People that daven have fewer tragedies.
People that daven don't have as much struggles in shiduchim or getting pregnant.
And I'm not saying it's a vending machine that automatically happens. I'm asking if there is even the slightest effect at all in this world?
For example amother Lilac on page 1 said: Yes of course davening works and you need to daven with this awareness! I have seen things that I davened for happen suddenly after I davened. Incredible things that came "out of the blue".
She's saying that clearly those who daven more receive a yes from hashem more. Do you agree?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Thu, Dec 26 2024, 4:50 am
| amother Ginger wrote: | I hear you but I feel we are talking past each other. I can 100% agree with everything you wrote. But this isn't my question or topic at all.
My question is whether davening helps get a yes from hashem at all. Even a little. Meaning frum women who daven have fewer miscarriages than others.
During Covid people that davened got covid less frequently (and severe) than others.
People that daven have fewer tragedies.
People that daven don't have as much struggles in shiduchim or getting pregnant.
And I'm not saying it's a vending machine that automatically happens. I'm asking if there is even the slightest effect at all in this world?
For example amother Lilac on page 1 said: Yes of course davening works and you need to daven with this awareness! I have seen things that I davened for happen suddenly after I davened. Incredible things that came "out of the blue".
She's saying that clearly those who daven more receive a yes from hashem more. Do you agree? |
Yes I agree because I've clearly seen it in my own life as well.
The other part is surrendering to Hashem's will. Sometimes the answer is no. Mostly not, so for the times that I get a no, I know Hashem has a better bigger plan for me. I then, maybe years later, see the bigger better plan. Because without suffering no great things happen.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Molly Weasley
|
Thu, Dec 26 2024, 9:20 am
The Kedushas Levi says that women have a tremendous ability to gain from the lights of Chanukah. He states that each night of Chanukah is mesugal for different things for women to daven for.
1st night – Not to be lonely or depressed;
2nd night – Shidduchim and Shalom Bayis;
3rd night – Healthy, happy and good children. (The Chasam Sofer says when you cry in front of the candles – you can be sure your teffilos will be answered);
4th night – (Four Imahos) To be a conventional woman within her own space who is true to her essence;
5th night – (Chamisha Chumshei Torah) Daven your husband and children should be talmidei chachamim. (By the 5th night, more of the menorah is lit up. You can daven for more revelation and light in your life);
6th night – Simcha. (You can have everything and still be sad, so this is an opportunity to daven for simcha);
7th night – Blissful Shabbos Kodesh infused with zmiros, divrei torah by your seuda. Shabbos is source of all bracha;
8th (Zos) night – Mesugal for barren women. (The number eight is above nature. According to Kabbalah: because the world was created in seven days so the number eight is considered beyond creation). Very powerful day to daven for yourself and others who weren’t yet zocheh to children.
Via stackexchange
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Thu, Dec 26 2024, 12:57 pm
| Molly Weasley wrote: | The Kedushas Levi says that women have a tremendous ability to gain from the lights of Chanukah. He states that each night of Chanukah is mesugal for different things for women to daven for.
1st night – Not to be lonely or depressed;
2nd night – Shidduchim and Shalom Bayis;
3rd night – Healthy, happy and good children. (The Chasam Sofer says when you cry in front of the candles – you can be sure your teffilos will be answered);
4th night – (Four Imahos) To be a conventional woman within her own space who is true to her essence;
5th night – (Chamisha Chumshei Torah) Daven your husband and children should be talmidei chachamim. (By the 5th night, more of the menorah is lit up. You can daven for more revelation and light in your life);
6th night – Simcha. (You can have everything and still be sad, so this is an opportunity to daven for simcha);
7th night – Blissful Shabbos Kodesh infused with zmiros, divrei torah by your seuda. Shabbos is source of all bracha;
8th (Zos) night – Mesugal for barren women. (The number eight is above nature. According to Kabbalah: because the world was created in seven days so the number eight is considered beyond creation). Very powerful day to daven for yourself and others who weren’t yet zocheh to children.
Via stackexchange |
Thanks
I really appreciate it
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
|
amother
Valerian
|
Fri, Dec 27 2024, 4:09 pm
Thank you!
Bookmarked this.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
DrMom
|
Yesterday at 10:37 am
|
How about davening for the safe return of our hostages?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
Bnei Berak 10
|
Yesterday at 12:48 pm
| amother Ginger wrote: | We can easily see that davening is not a vending machine where you put in a quarter and the cookie comes out 2 seconds later. That's a given. The question is whether davening helps at all in getting a yes in this world.
For example during covid, did the people who davened have better outcomes than those that didn't?
Frum pregnant women daven. Do we have fewer misses than non daveners?
We all daven for health. Do frum people who daven get terminal illnesses less?
So my question isn't whether it's vending machine style. It obviously isn't. My question is whether there's an iota of help that davening offers in this world towards a yes answer from hashem. If we say there is then we have to also say that frum people get cancer less. |
Imamother Ginger,
If you want something you need to ask HaShem for it. He wants your prayers very much. If you don't use the power of prayer then can you expect a yes? You need to ask!
The world doesn't work in the simplistic way you state like people who pray have no problems. There are so many parameters and cheshbonot shamayim that we we will not comprehend.
Instead of getting into philosophical things just do your hishtadlut. No prayer will not enlarge your chances for things to come true.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
amother
|
Yesterday at 5:53 pm
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | Imamother Ginger,
If you want something you need to ask HaShem for it. He wants your prayers very much. If you don't use the power of prayer then can you expect a yes? You need to ask!
The world doesn't work in the simplistic way you state like people who pray have no problems. There are so many parameters and cheshbonot shamayim that we we will not comprehend.
Instead of getting into philosophical things just do your hishtadlut. No prayer will not enlarge your chances for things to come true. |
The bolded seems to be 100% inaccurate, no?
Do atheists who never ask gd for anything not get health, parnassah, and the same brochos that others who ask hashem for things all the time?
Do they get married, have children and see nachas?
Why do you say that people who don't ask hashem don't receive? I would say they do.
In fact I think if we randomly sampled 2000 people 1000 who daven and 1000 who never daven. We would not be able to tell from looking at their lives which are the daveners.
Would you be able to tell just by looking at who gets sick more, who has fewer miscarriages, and who is struggling with parnassah?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
|
amother
Daylily
|
Today at 7:37 am
The Kedushas Levi ztz"l says that each night of Chanukah is mesugal for different things to daven for:
First Night: Daven that you should not to be lonely or depressed.
Second Night: Daven for shidduchim, and shalom bayis.
Third Night: Daven for good, happy, and healthy children,
(The Chasam Sofer says when you cry in front of the candles you can be sure your tefilos are answered.)
Fourth Night: 4 Imahos. Daven to be a normal woman of true essence, in your own 4 walls,
Fifth Night: Chamisha Chumshei Torah. Daven that your husband and children be a talmidei chachamim.
Fifth Night: By the fifth night more of the menorah is lit up and you can daven for more light in your life, for a revelation.
Sixth Night: Simcha. You can have everything and still be sad, so this is an opportunity to daven for simcha.
Seventh Night: to have joyful Shabbos Zmiros and Divrei Torah by your seuda. Shabbos is the source of all bracha.
Eighth Night: mesugal for barren women, Eight is above nature, and it is powerful to daven on this day. The Kedushas Levi says that if you are planning to commit to something new. if you start on Chanukah it will be blessed.
Wishing you lots of hatzlacha and happiness
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
↑
Hashem_Yaazor
|
Today at 8:22 am
(this is proof that it's a woman's thing circulating... What does it even mean to be a woman of true essence?
I have no issue with davening in front of the candles, I just hate made up sources)
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
