Toilet training - is "tough love" appropriate?

Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 1:49 pm

DS was doing great. He peed on the floor a couple times, but there has been definite progress. We've been at it since Friday. Today suddenly he refused to go in the toilet, demanding a diaper. He had a tantrum over it. I broke out all the bribery to keep him on the toilet. He had actually been holding it in almost all day (!) Confused

so I didn't want to give in on the diaper when we were about to hit pay dirt.... While he cried I held him on the toilet knowing it would come out soon. It did... yay! I gave TONS of positive reinforcement. But I felt so bad. Is tough love appropriate for potty training?

mamacita

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 2:15 pm

I also wouldn't use tough love in situations where the child's continuing cooperation is needed. dd usually loves to sit on the potty (unproductively) and the other day I noticed she was going, ran her over to the potty, pulled off her diaper and sat her down. For the first time ever she cried, tried to get down and begged for a diaper. So she got it, but she also got tons of praise for trying and for the little bit that accidentally went in before she gave up (TMI, sorry!).

I don't want her to be afraid, tense, or in a power struggle over it, so we're taking it really, really, slow, as in since Pesach, lol. She's young still though and there is no pressure about school so we're taking our time.

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 2:45 pm

The thing is, we've been through this before, many months ago... where he was doing great, and he regressed. I thought it was because I caved in on the suddenly wanting a diaper business. That's why I was tough this time. It worked out well, and he was proud of his accomplishment in the end, but it wasn't the route I would have preferred to take. I just didn't want another case where he was almost trained and I gave in...

Ilovechoumous, I thought about getting one of those dolls, but seeing as he has a real-live 4-year-old trainer, I didn't think it was necessary Smile

. We've been doing the same idea as the doll. Having our 4-year-old show off his talent, and then praise him and give him lots of attention for making in the toilet. He's loving it, and his little brother trainee is definitely catching on.

cubbie ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 3:00 pm

I think it depends on the kid, my dd1 NEEDED the tough love approach, and when I finally used it she was trained in half an hour and never had an accident after that. For some kids especially older, toilet training is an issue of control and to take back the control you just have to be tough (and emotionally very strong) She was two months short of her 3rd birthday and I had been trying to train her for months. She would sit if she didn't need to go, but hold in for 6-8 hours and when she finally couldn't hold in any longer would start crying hysterically and begging for a diaper so I would feel bad and give her one, then one day I said no more and hid all the diapers, just getting one out for the night. The first day I let her tantrum and scream until she wet herself she then spent the rest of the day peeing on the floor but refused to sit, the second day she was happily going on the floor from the morning, but the third day I got tough and told her that she would sit on the toilet for five minutes every 15 minutes, so agreed to sit but went back to holding in, eventually she started to cry and was refusing to sit on the toilet which I knew meant that she couldn't hold in anymore so I held her on, whilst she was screaming and kicking, but I just held her on hugging her and eventually it came out, about 10 minutes later I could see her squirming so I put her back on the toilet, but she knew she'd lost the previous battle and didn't give me much of a fight. Half an hour after that she just stood up and went to the toilet to make and that was it, she was trained.

freidasima ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 3:51 pm

As an older mother, about to become a grandmother, I've got to tell you that I am a bit horrified by the stories I read here.

No kallah or chossen ever went to the chuppa in a diaper unless he/she had a medical condition.
I never pushed. I would ask if they wanted to try. If they did, we tried. If they didn't we kept to the diapers until they were ready. They knew that there would be no nursery school in diapers. They wanted nursery school (at age two and a half). They were usually dry during the day by then. I never made a big deal out of being dry at night. Three, four, whatever. Never went past four.

Forcing a kid to sit on a potty? Letting them make on the floor? Gevalt.
Leave them be already.
Tough love? Pick your battles. Don't make toilet training an issue.
If you don't make any big deal out of it, it can never become a power issue.
Kids like to be clean. Babies make in diapers. When your baby becomes a kid he/she will be ready to try.

Just leave them alone.
That doesn't mean that when you change them and they are older you can't say "fichs, isn't it time for you to use the toilet already"? (like if they are three).

You don't have to fake your emotions. but to hold a child forcibly on a potty?
Gevalt
Torture
Child abuse
All those things come to mind.
Sorry to be blunt, Im just horrified by what I read here.

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 4:16 pm

Tamiri wrote:

Are you mothers working so hard to train the kids so that they get into preschool? I know there was a non-Israel forum who did just that (and she's probably still dealing with wet pants on the school bus every day). Why force the child. When a kid WANTS to do something, it's a win-win situation. When the kid doesn't Mom has to work too hard.

I am not under any pressure time-wise. His Gan doesn't mind that he's in a diaper. Like I said, he wants his diaper changed when there's hardly anything in it... and he's very verbal about when he has to go... if he's not ready, I'm not sure what is... He is for sure capable, and proud when he goes on the toilet.

So Freidasima, when we have made so much progress, and he's proud of himself and doing well, you think I should have just given in with the diaper? This is after he held it in for most of the day. (I still put him in a diaper at night and he still will only make poopy in the diaper.) I can understand how it sounds harsh to hold him on the toilet, but I think you had to be there. He started to sprinkle a little on the floor (and I knew he had a lot stored up) so I quickly rushed him to the toilet. He turned it off like a faucet. He cried while holding it in and a few more drops leaked out... and I knew once he let it go he would feel good and proud because of the whole song and dance we do when he goes in the toilet.... I was right... he was proud after that and got his treat.

I started the thread because it seems kind of harsh to hold him on forcibly... but at the same time, isn't it a disservice when he is about to succeed, to hold him back and put him in a diaper? He knew I wasn't holding him on the toilet in anger... I did it as lovingly as possible with encouraging words...

↑ Tamiri ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 4:23 pm

Bamba, he's a big boy and he knows what to do. The minute you "take over" by rushing him to the toilet, he has the power and can get you coming and going. If you casually tell him: darling, when you feel the need, just wander over to the toilet, take off your diaper and do your thing - the game will be in HIS court and he can decide what to do with it. He will be the only player. Remove yourself, distance yourself, and let him take control of his body's functions. Show that you are fine with whatever he does, and let him make the decision whether to wet and soil his diaper, or not.
BTW, if he can't make a BM in the toilet, he's not "trained". No matter how many times he pees there. Some would claim that bed wetters are not "trained" either, but my experience with my boys shows that it can be several years after dry/clean days before the bed stays dry 100% of the time.

↑ Bambamama ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 4:33 pm

I can't help but think this DS would be content to be in a diaper for years to come*. Until what age would all of you "Oh no, you're abusing your child" people say it's OK for some nudging?

Tamiri wrote:

If you casually tell him: darling, when you feel the need, just wander over to the toilet, take off your diaper and do your thing - the game will be in HIS court and he can decide what to do with it.

Does that actually happen? A kid in diapers will wander over to the toilet and take it off to do his thing? Does he put his diaper back on himself too? I don't mean to be facetious but seriously, what age are we talking about? If he can still play with his toys, why would he interrupt his activity to bother with removing his diaper and using a toilet?

*as long as someone was willing to change it according to his whims, wet or not.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 4:47 pm

Bambamama wrote:

I can't help but think this DS would be content to be in a diaper for years to come*. Until what age would all of you "Oh no, you're abusing your child" people say it's OK for some nudging?

Tamiri wrote:

If you casually tell him: darling, when you feel the need, just wander over to the toilet, take off your diaper and do your thing - the game will be in HIS court and he can decide what to do with it.

Ah, so the beauty of it is: he's in charge. Yes, he can get his diaper off. You said he WANTS to... okay, so let him make on the toilet. But he's got to do the work. He can call you to help him once he's in the bathroom. And call you to get his pants back up. But, see: HE will be doing the asking, not you. You go by his cue, what makes him comfortable. You can inform him that you will no longer be changing his diaper according to his whims, and show him how to get the diaper off. Then, see what happens. You have to be smarter than your kid.

↑ cubbie ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 4:49 pm

freidasima wrote:

Woah Torture, Child abuse, that's abit harsh!
When you have a child who is able to hold in for hours on end, you have a child who is 100% in control of their bodily functions and when in my case we got to the point where SHE WAS CHANGING HER OWN DIAPER - YES THAT'S WHERE WE WERE AT WITH MY DD - it was my role to get her over this issue of not wanting to go to the toilet and spending money on diapers at that point was in my opionion money down the drain. You are talking about 3 being older, and ready and all yours being daytime dry at 2 1/2, well we're talking about almost 3 year olds.
Making on the floor is IMHO a very important first step for a kid who holds in as it gets them used to being able to release themselves outside of a diaper.
As for making them sit, when I talked about 5 mins on 15 mins off, that was not by physical force, we had fun, we read, sang, played with toys and I taught her how to count minutes on my watch so she could time the five minutes herself. It was only at the end when she really needed to go that I held her on, as I said hugging her and I was telling her that she was doing great and that I was proud of her, yes she fought it, but the whole thing lasted all of 2 minutes - that is abuse????????
No I didn't make an issue of nightime training, she decided for herself that she wanted to stop with diapers about 6 months later and has wet the bed 3 times in total so far (in 4 months), and she has NEVER wet herself during the day, so I would be hestitant to say that she has been psychologically damaged with regard to going to the toilet by the event.
Incidentally my mother is a psychologist and I was in discussion with her the whole time during this period, and believe me she would not have hesitated to have told me that I was doing something unhealthy.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Tue, Oct 21 2008, 4:51 pm

What constitutes being smarter?
NEVER compare the children. If you want to show your pleasure at how 4 yo cares for his/her toileting, you praise the 4 yo without EVER looking at the 3 yo. Let the 3 yo find out what makes you happy, without him having to feel bad about not doing it.
Walk away from the power struggle. It takes two. If you are non committal about it, he can't use it against you.
Give him more responsibility. Ditto above. When it's in his court he can't use it against you.
Never bribe or overly reward for toileting. That lets the kid know how important it is to you. You want it to come from the child!