Daniel Penny: Subway Hero? Or Racist Murderer?

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 3:48 pm

fmt4 wrote:

No nuance. Everything is black and white. No ability to see anything beyond simplistic binaries.
Life is so much more complex. I feel sorry for people who are so easily duped by such reductive and ideologically driven narratives.

What nuance are you looking for here? Do you agree that Penny is a victim because he is a white man who killed a black person and that DA Bragg wouldn't give a hoot if it were 2 blacks involved?

And Penny is a hero for having the guts and courage to stand up on that train and get physically involved. I'd guess 99% of people wouldn't do that. He's not a hero in the way the media made George Floyd into a hero because Floyd never did anything heroic. Penny did. He voluntarily put himself in harms way.

miami85 ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 3:56 pm

What's such a shonda is that the DA in this case is an extremely liberal Jew and it is becoming a huge chilul HaShem that her misplaced mercy is for the drug-infused mentally ill individual who was making death threats that fateful day, and not for the man who stepped into save everyone.

In the video of Daniel Penny you see 3 individuals with Jordan Neely. Daniel Penney who has Neely in the chokehold, A man who looks Hispanic looking on, not trying to stop Penny, not looking concerned or trying to get Penny to let up and an African American individual who is holding Neely's hands I guess trying to get Neely to calm down--again not interfering with Penny not yelling at him to stop. Thus, no one seems concerned that Penny is doing anything that would result in death, or a wrongful death. There was no way for Penny to know that Neely was 1)on drugs 2)psychotic 3) sickle-cell, all he knew was that he was threatening the people on the train, claimed he was ready to die that day and there are videos of everyone on the train grateful for Penny's actions.

Why there were even SOME of the jurors who thought this was 2nd degree manslaughter, which means that they will likely convict on one of the lower charges, is atrocious. Why Neely's family is suddenly caring about their son--but they didn't seem to care that he was psychotic, on drugs, threatening others and only seeing this as a racial issue is rather disgusting.

↑ fleetwood ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 4:11 pm

miami85 wrote:

She was assigned to the case.

How in earth is this a chillul H??

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 4:31 pm

fleetwood wrote:

She was assigned to the case.

How in earth is this a chillul H??

It's a terrible chillul hashem and a disgrace that as a result of her being assigned to the case, people will learn that this Jew is a woke lunatic.

In 2019 she argued on behalf of a black mugger who murdered an 87 year old man for $300 that he be given a lighter sentence in what she said she saw an opportunity for a "transformative outcome”. The murderer in that case was a black man names Matthew Lee. She had the murderers sentence reduced from 25 years to 10.

Now that it's a white defendant and Neeley is black, she's getting tough. Oy Vey.

What a chillul hashem that people are researching her and learning what a fool this person is.

princessleah

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 4:37 pm

From what I have read — in the NY TIMES— a LIBERAL paper is that the prosecution is not painting Penny as a vigilante. They acknowledge that he was trying to help, only that he held the chokehold for too long, after the point that Neely was limp and no longer a threat.

I have worked in inpatient public psych hospitals. I work with veterans. I see both sides of this issue. Members of the military are trained to keep going until the “mission is done.” His military training was likely activated here to the point where he wouldn’t think to let go.
Also, it’s very hard to lose track of people with mental illness, especially in a big city like NY. They have rights as citizens too- as long as they do not pose an IMMINENT threat to themselves or others. And even if they are hospitalized against their will, once they start to get better you can’t hold them anymore.

It’s very complicated. What I can tell you will NOT help the situation is cutting funding to public hospitals, to clinics, to social service agencies and to the VA.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 4:40 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Yes I agree that Penny is being treated unfairly BUT I also think that if someone dies as a result of someone else’s actions, there needs to be some kind of reckoning.

Yes I agree that Penny did the right thing in this case BUT I also think that it could be dangerous for people to take justice in their own hands when they decide someone is a danger. It isn’t the ideal way to deal with conflict and we need to be careful in how we valorize it. The killing of the healthcare ceo would be an interesting case to compare.

Yes I think that Penny’s intentions were good but I also wonder if he perhaps was over zealous. It’s hard to know and I don’t judge but I still wonder if there could have been a scenario where Neely was subdued but not to the point of death. Maybe there should be more education on how to properly use chokeholds?

Yes I agree that Neely was dangerous BUT I also am interested in the factors that lead someone to that place. It’s important to understand these factors so we can try to help these people before they become dangers to society.

These are examples of nuance, where we don’t need to see every little thing through the binary lens that the media and activists try to force us to use. There are so many interesting conversations to be had about this topic that are shut down by the kind of tired name calling and reductive narratives that are being pushed.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 5:46 pm

When someone is in a life or death situation we should not be second guessing them.

This results in innocent people getting killed because they thought the attacker was unconscious and then the attacker kills them

And people will be afraid to subdue an attacker for fear of prosecution

And people will die!

Is that what you want, fmt?

Miranda Wright

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 5:48 pm

fmt4 wrote:

I meant specifically on imamother. There is a way to have this discussion in a nuanced way that doesn’t devolve into “you’re left wing so you don’t understand anything.”
Even the title of this thread is an attempt to preclude a nuanced discussion and instead lean into extremes: he MUST be either a hero OR a murderer.99 percent of the time, life doesn’t work that way. Life isn’t like the movies. Humans aren’t all bad or all good and each person has a story and complex motives. I think this case deserves to be viewed in a nuanced way. When you view it as binary: good vs evil, black vs white, you fall straight into the hands of the media and activists on both sides that want to whip up public sentiment for cheap political points.
I wish we could try to avoid doing that on here. But it’s impossible if any time someone tries to give a nuanced take, they are told that they are leftist and how DARE they question the established narrative.
It’s just very dispiriting. I don’t know why I keep on expecting more

Cheiny wrote:

Typical leftist wokeness.

I can always count on you for a laugh, Cheiny

Fox ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 6:21 pm

fmt4 wrote:

The only nuance here is that NY seems to have forgotten all the lessons they learned in the 80s and 90s.

Yes, it is undesirable to have people acting as extrajudicial law enforcement. But the way you avoid that is by providing an effective judicial system and effective policing. You don't punish people for doing the job the government refused to do, however imperfectly they may do it.

The issues are similar with regard to mental health. Starting in the 70s, states began changing involuntary commitment laws as a response to abuses against mental patients. The de facto "solution" is to make the police responsible for handling the seriously mentally ill. It's a mismatch of epic proportions.

No reasonable person wants to return to the "Snake Pit" days, but we also shouldn't pretend that there aren't people who are walking time bombs.

NYC knows what works. But for a number of reasons, they prefer not to do it. Daniel Penny is far more sympathetic than Bernard Goetz was, but their origins are the same, and the needed response is the same. And if NYC had done its job, Neely would be alive and Penny would not be on trial.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 6:36 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

But let’s say there’s another situation where it wasn’t actually a life or death situation? But someone decides it is? And kills someone who didn’t need to be killed? The point is that we can’t trust random people to know when the situation calls for that kind of reaction and when it doesn’t. We can’t have a lawless country where any one can decide that the situation calls for them taking the law into their own hands and killing someone they hav decided is a threat. I’m not saying this happened with Penny. I’m saying that it could happen if that kind of justice becomes the norm.

Hello99 ↓

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 8:07 pm

I think that Penny did the right thing. According to court testimony neeley had a lot of drugs in his system and the NYPD didn't administer mouth to mouth. Even if you believe that he did the wrong thing and neeley wouldn't have followed through with his threats, why did this case become a race issue? What did Penny do or say that made it about neeleys race? The prosecuter referred to Penny as the "white guy". Is there more information that I am missing?

chestnut

Sun, Dec 08 2024, 8:59 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Because Penny was charged, others like him will now be scared to do anything, which leads to regular people being even more unprotected, if that's even possible, in NYC subway. If the city and police can't protect passengers, I'm absolutely ok with a Good Samaritan to decide how much power to use to protect others on the train or in the street.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Mon, Dec 09 2024, 2:50 am

fmt4 wrote:

But this situation was clearly a life threatening situation

And charged should not have been brought

Agree?

zohar ↓

Mon, Dec 09 2024, 3:40 am

[quote="fleetwood"]

#BestBubby wrote:

But this situation was clearly a life threatening situation

And charged should not have been brought

Agree?[/quoten

No I don't agree. This is a jury question. Let the courts decide. That's how it's done.

No. That's not how it's done. The protector decides to bring charges or not and what the charges are. Sometimes a grand jury is involved, but usually good the way the prosecutor wants it to.

↑ zohar

Mon, Dec 09 2024, 3:55 am

This is a classic case of כל המרחם על אכזרים סופו מתאכזר לרחמנים.

It's amazing that this can always predict a leftist's reaction to a situation. (Poor Palestinians leads to Jewish victims have it coming, for example)

In this case we have a very similar case that never made it to trial in NYC. A man, on the subway, was acting officially erratically, on drugs, threatening people, including a woman who's boyfriend then stabbed him to death. This case is even "worse" as the he for sure was the one who killed him, and he used obvious deadly force. Whereas with Neely, he may have died from drug overdose and even if not, it definitely wasn't intentional. Although, I do remember when this happened, it was a local story that was minimally reported on. This became a national story immediately. What is the difference in these two cases? One thing. In the stabbing case, both parties were black and it can't be made into a race story.

Here's a link to the above story:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/w.....amp=1

There is a two tiered justice system in NY

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Mon, Dec 09 2024, 3:55 am

[quote="fleetwood"]

#BestBubby wrote:

But this situation was clearly a life threatening situation

And charged should not have been brought

Agree?

Quote:

No I don't agree. This is a jury question. Let the courts decide. That's how it's done.

No. The D.A. decides.

When a black man killed an attacker on the subway, the D.A. Bragg decided not to press charges because it was clearly self defense.

Bragg charged Penny because it was a white man killing a black man, even though it was clearly self defense.

Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, Dec 09 2024, 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total