Im horrified! Ds read private letter!

amother

Lightblue

Today at 12:25 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

Agreed.

One caveat, I was much more worried about my DS who did similar before we discovered that he is HFASD. Very very high-functioning. Had been previously diagnosed with ODD, DMDD, and similar. Turns out to be HFASD. He's not being oppositional or manipulative on purpose, he just misses major social cues and doesn't understand - or misunderstands - social rules. Also why we have to be very clear about the rule itself and not mix in the contents of the letter. He can't understand both if they are presented together. One, and then much later, the other.

He also didn't see it as "revenge" on us, rather on "you did to me so I do to you as you did to me, if you can do it why can't I do the same" - I.e. completely nonexistent social hierarchy. (Social hierarchy = parents can confiscate children's items but children may not do the same to parents; parents can say "you can have chocolate after you are in pajamas" but children cannot tell parents "you can have your letter back after you give me what you took from me").

Also why can't he read papers if you didn't tell him he couldn't? You never said he couldn't so it's not a problem.

Etc.

ALL of it turned out to be a result of HFASD and when we stopped looking at it as intentional manipulation and started seeing it as completely missing social rules, and then explained the social rules without judgement, things started getting better. (When we explained social rules and he took it well and explained his misunderstanding we gave a symbolic consequence, nothing more, and said "now you understand, next time there will be severe consequences." If he kept insisting that he is right then we just slapped on the regular consequences. Because if you don't want to learn/ refuse to learn/ insist you are right - then we'll treat you as if you understood.)

I have a family member I suspect has ASD. Are you able to explain why ASD would cause that behavior?

amother

↑ Oldlace

Today at 12:52 am

amother Lightblue wrote:

I have a family member I suspect has ASD. Are you able to explain why ASD would cause that behavior?

And here I thought my post was extremely repetitive.

Yes, I thought I did explain.

People with ASD, by definition, do not understand unspoken social rules as automatically as everyone else does. They need to be explicitly taught.

All of what OP describes as manipulations are only manipulations if the person understands social rules and manipulates the situation intentionally. But if the person does not know the following rules, they are just clueless, not manipulative.

Rules that OP's child may have missed:
* Parents can confiscate from children, children may not confiscate from parents
* Social hierarchy places children lower than parents and subject to what the responsible adult in any given situation decides
* You do not read someone else's letter
* If you DID read the letter, you do not ever ever mention it, you keep it to yourself
* Unless you are a criminal, you never take information that you got illicitly and use it against the person who owns it
* If you break and enter, you cover it up, you don't give yourself away and demand compensation
* Your parents' room is off limits
* If you make a mistake, you hide it, you don't show it off
* If you tried to take something off-limits and failed, you try again quietly or with the help of a co-conspirator, you don't ask for help from the person whose privacy you're violating

crust

Today at 4:44 am

Its bad that he read the letter but what are you going to do?

The desperation to explain that it's not like what he read will give away how true it is.

Take a deep breath. You can't control this. It's sad that he read it. Its uncomfortable that he read it. But it's not something you can change right now.

If you believe damage control is a must you need clarity on how to address it.
Nothing will happen if you wait a few weeks to do damage control.

The bigger issue here is the obvious out of balance power struggle.

I am not saying your husband was right or wrong but as a general rule confiscating anything from a 15 year old will naturally cause any power struggle to escalate.

There is no way a regular teen will take a confiscation hands down unless he is depressed or not assertive.

In order for a confiscation to be effective the grounds for it have to be established over a long time and it needs to be done with wisdom and a mutual understanding of parents and child.

When you have considered all your options and came to the conclusion that you are going to confiscate something from a 15 year old you have to make sure that your grounds are rock solid because this is the exact scenario that you want to avoid.

amother

↑ DarkKhaki ↓

Today at 5:01 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

It can be asd. But it can also be out of whack dynamics that lead here too. I’ve seen this in families where the parents people please and never say no and fall over themselves to explain every move, not set boundaries, not discipline, so that they don’t upset the kids. And the results look like this, the kids in charge of the house while the parents beg for mercy all day. So it’s not necessarily asd. And based on the concern with how to cover up that the letter is real over the bigger issues at hand, I think it’s the latter.

amother

Coral

Today at 5:14 am

I didnt read all responses so I don't know if anyone said this already. But this is an opportunity to educate your son about marriage. He is 15 so not too young at all. I would say something like:
"first of all, that letter was private so not meant for you. And there is a reason for that. When two people are married, sometimes things come up and feelings are hurt. But both parties need to do their best to make shalom and move past it. Sometimes it can be really painful because the closer you are to someone, the mroe it hurts if they hurt you, even by mistake. You know me and Tatty have a great marriage bh, you see it in action. Don't think that this letter denies that. This letter was private and hidden because it was my way of letting of steam in the moment in the moment when I was upset. But we worked it through between us and moved past it.
In the future you should know that when things are private and hidden, it's usually not meant for you."

B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Today at 7:25 am

amother OP wrote:

That's definitely an issue that he needs to keep his nose out of my stuff, but it's irrelevant for now. Dh hid something from him for very valid reason and he was looking for it in territories that don't belong to him. It was very well hidden.
I know about it, Bec he told me, when dh will give him back his item, he will give me back the papers he found. ( Which he didn't even take. He just had to let me know he saw it)
I know that was real chutzpah, but that's for another topic. Now im concerned about what he read in the letter. And although I know it's ok for kids to know about the ups and downs in marriage, I still think this letter was wayyyy wayyy too much. Too many personal details. He doesn't need to know that. I feel horrible that he read all that.

Theres your problem. He is EXTORTING you!!
The letter is easily explained as meaninless and worthless, and doesnt belong to him. Halachically he has no right to read it and certainly not to keep it and Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom, which is accepted today, also covers that letter.
His behavior is unacceptable in a Torah home (or any home) and he needs to return it. Since he chooses to be nasty about it, I would take him to your Rav. He wants to play adult games, let him understand that there are adult repercussions.

You need not say a word about your marriage and since that letter is no longer relevant, it was just an exercise in airing your feelings at the moment, something adults do. President Abraham Lincoln was famous for it. YOU DO NOT NEED TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING. Anything you say, will only discredit yourself. As a parent, you owe him no explanation. End of discussion.

Regarding the item that dh is holding, that, too will be given to the Rav for adjudication.[b]

Source for above:
1. " The New York Times:

WHENEVER Abraham Lincoln felt the urge to tell someone off, he would compose what he called a “hot letter.” He’d pile all of his anger into a note, “put it aside until his emotions cooled down,” Doris Kearns Goodwin once explained on NPR, “and then write: ‘Never sent. Never signed.’ ” Which meant that Gen. George G. Meade, for one, would never hear from his commander in chief that Lincoln blamed him for letting Robert E. Lee escape after Gettysburg.

Lincoln was hardly unique. Among public figures who need to think twice about their choice of words, the unsent angry letter has a venerable tradition. Its purpose is twofold. It serves as a type of emotional catharsis, a way to let it all out without the repercussions of true engagement. And it acts as a strategic catharsis, an exercise in saying what you really think, which Mark Twain (himself a notable non-sender of correspondence) believed provided “unallowable frankness & freedom.” " https://www.psychologicalscien......html

2. "Lincoln did not send the letter--writing such correspondence and storing it away was a favorite coping mechanism of his." https://www.battlefields.org/l.....meade

Last edited by B'Syata D'Shmya on Mon, Dec 02 2024, 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya

Today at 7:27 am

amother Coral wrote:

Any two people but I think opening the door to discussion at this point that he is using the letter as ransom (extortion), you dont owe him anything. He can see for himself what a marriage his parents have.

amother

Apple

Today at 7:27 am

I would be more upset about the violation of privacy than about the emotional effect of the contents of the letter on ds. I'd explain to ds that writing out negative feelings in a letter that is never sent is an effective way to get them off one's chest without hurting anyone or damaging a relationship. I would reassure him that all couples have occasional broygezes, but they blow over and do no permanent damage. Then I would say that you forgot that Step Two of the venting process is destroying the letter. Then I would explain that letters are as personal and private as diaries and both halacha and common decency forbid reading correspondence not addressed to you, regardless of whether or not it was ever sent. Then I would discuss what would be an appropriate atonement on ds part. He knowingly stepped over a line and very much needs to atone.

amother

↑ DarkKhaki ↓

Today at 7:31 am

amother Apple wrote:

It’s really not necessary to share all this. Especially with a kid that uses everything against you.

amother

Red

Today at 7:48 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

I had a similar situation with my HFASD son

amother

Floralwhite

Today at 7:50 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

Who got you the diagnosis?