Double take-Helping hand

amother

NeonPink

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 2:33 pm

And again another story that there was no communication. I agree that I would think a sil and brother take priority over a cousin, but Tirtza should have still spelt out that she was expecting her to come.
I would also think that speaking to her sil herself rather than her cousin also would have made sense. Swallowing resentment is never a great idea.
But ime having sem girls is never actually much of a help. They come for a short time, play with the kids for a bit, then expect supper, be invited for meals, use the phone and all the other amenities. And half the time they cancel due to other things that are more important. I don't expect them to be reliable.

amother

Ivory ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 3:09 pm

As someone that had chessed for 5 years.
I had some girls that were amazing! They would come and take my kids to the park with supper in containers or out to pizza (on my credit card) and come back and put them in pajamas and it was a lifesaver! Then there were girls that came for about an hour and complained if my house was messy (ie. toys were out) and lets face it my house is Israeli so it was uncomfortable for them.
Eventually I stopped taking chessed girls because it was such a burden to have my house sparkling for 45 minutes of "help".
You also cannot ever count on a chessed girl to come. That means never make an appointment during that time, because they may show up or they may not show up without notice.
I find that they are the most help for small families (1 baby or a baby and a toddler) but once your kids are older they don't help that much.
I tell my relatives they are more than welcome to come over anytime and sit on my couch and hangout or take my kids to the park but the weekly commitment is too much for me.

And to answer those questions from before: yes, most seminaries have a rule that your chessed family has to have 3+ kids that way they don't "waste" chessed girls on families that don't need it as much.

Personally, I have no idea what Tirtza's problem is. You don't "own" a seminary girl. If you ask a girl and she can help you that is great. It is never expected (not even from my own sisters!!). Her cousin was responsible and asked. She should have asked if she wanted...

amother

↑ Saddlebrown ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 3:23 pm

amother Catmint wrote:

In general when I read these double take stories, I read the first side and think wow what could the other side possibly say? And then I read the second side and see it’s more complicated. Except in this story. It’s such a given that siblings come first, I can’t even believe the cousin thought it was normal to ask. I’m shocked that anyone here thinks that a sibling doesn’t come first.

No one's thinking of the seminary girl herself. She didn't want to travel to her sil, she wanted to do the cousin down the block. Also she wanted to be able to feel like she had family and go to her brother's house for a shabbos or yuntif or for help (laundry food etc). Not to go as a worker being sent by her seminary to do free babysitting.

Teenage girls are people too. With the cousin she can do her requirement and get on with her other responsibilities, and she can build an actual relationship with her sil and her brothers kids.

(I was the first in my family to get married and the only one to move to an 'in town' place. That means that my house is where everyone lands, for shidduchim, for travel, for simchas, for everything. That doesn't entitle me to their help and babysitting services when they're here. The seminary girl going to her brother and sils house and expecting hospitality doesn't require her to become their helper.)

amother

↑ Mayflower ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 3:40 pm

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

Right. They shouldn't expect or rely on it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be considerate of her to occasionally offer a hand....

LovesHashem ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 3:47 pm

shev wrote:

I actually agree with Tirtza help begins at home. A girl should be belping her siblings before a couson.
In Israel its quite easy to get girls for pay to help with kids in the afternoon. Its not too expensive. The lifestyle there is different. The little children finish playgrp, babysitters at abt 1. So, its common that the parks are full of seminary girls and reg girls watching lil kids.

Maybe in Yerushalayim but it's not cheap and easy outside of there....

↑ LovesHashem

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 3:50 pm

amother Tuberose wrote:

But in this story, the women were so overwhelmed that they were angry, resentful, and fighting over a volunteer they were relying on to keep things running. So clearly whatever help their husbands were giving them wasn't enough to keep them afloat. The one husband had no solutions other than hiring more help which they couldn't afford.

My husband isn't in kollel, and we share the responsibilities of the house and the kids.

But we aren't always "coping" too. I tried to get a Chesed girl this year since I'm dealing with a high risk pregnancy, prenatal anxiety, depression, and I meet the criteria. Still couldn't get someone.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 4:08 pm

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

I agree the seminary girl should have choices, and the cousin is down the block, but if she expects to go to a SIL who has toddlers and is expecting, for a 3 day YT no less, with friends, she should be a mentch and come pitch in a little beforehand. That's not being a worker - it's basic middos.

amother

↑ Saddlebrown

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 4:11 pm

Chayalle wrote:

For sure. And she should be a good guest and helpful while she's there. But she doesn't "owe" them her Chessed hours for the whole year because she expects to be welcome in her brother's home.

amother

Mimosa ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 4:34 pm

I don't even understand why they want a chessed girl. I live in Israel and had a chessed girl twice. One came twice the whole year. It was a whole lot worse to expect her and prep for her and then she didn't show up. (After 2 months I just officially cancelled since I couldn't handle the no-show situation.) Of and I wasn't mistreating her. She was a family member who came all the time for shabbos and favors just always had something more fun to do when she was supposed to help (ie cook or watch the kids.)

The second one was from a very clean home (live in maid) and I had to clean up to feel like I could have her over. (Thursdays I usually let the mess slide while I prep for Shabbos and then I do a full clean on Friday.) She was pampered and didn't really want to do anything other than chat and sometimes make 1 dish. I had to give her supper too. Basically, it was moe work than a help. I turned down any other chessed girls since then. The "help" isn't worthwhile.

Obviously communication is an issue in this situation. However, sem girls really do take advantage and should help more if they want to be hosted for YT or with a group of friends for Shabbos. If your sister is pg and has a few little kids, maybe come over and help for 2 hours before crashing for a 3 day YT...

amother

Tangerine ↓

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 7:23 pm

amother Hyacinth wrote:

Honestly I just read it and felt they are both such brats. Expecting help just because you have a family member there is just so off. I don't think one needs it more than the other at all and I think it's horrible to kind of fight over who needs the help more.

I’m late to the conversation but if you didn’t do sem in Israel, or didn’t have siblings there at the time, then I think you’re missing a part of the picture.

The sibling is expected to host sem kid and friends many times through the year and be a surragate parent when needed. While no one owes them chessed, it is pretty unheard of to go to someone else without offering the sibling first.

She was going to tirtza for yt, and spend the Thursday before watching her cousin’s kids? If you’re going to anyone for yt it’s polite to offer to help a few days before but if you’re going to be going to someone often the steady help is so appreciated!

I was the sem sister btw. Not the sibling. My sister wasn’t really up to hosting me much but she was still my sister and there was no question in my mind I would be helping her. My brother lived nearby and I took his kids along whenever they wanted.

It’s a big part of the culture and nothing like the concept of chessed girls in the us.

Ultimately though I don’t get why tirtza didn’t communicate with her sil directly right away- I was really hoping you could come help me since I won’t qualify for help otherwise, can you get a friend for cousin? By the time she asked it was too late.

amother

Electricblue

Sun, Nov 24 2024, 8:49 pm

JasmineDragon wrote:

Tirtza never communicated with her family until her sister-in-law had already made arrangements. If they'd both asked it would be one thing, but they didn't. The one who asked for help got help.

Her mil should have checked with her son if they need the help before saying yes to a cousin. Of course a brother / sibling comes first. Furthermore, when Tirzta called Aviva the should have come up with a compromise of switching off each week if it work's for Shifra. ( not sure I got the names correctly)

farm

Mon, Nov 25 2024, 1:52 am

amother Catmint wrote:

Same. But this time I read the first side and didn’t even need to read the second side to be annoyed at Tirza with zero sympathy. What’s up with all the assumptions and cheshbonos of how her cousin has it so much easier and doesn’t ‘deserve’ a chessed girl? Yuck. Peeves me when people see the tip of the iceberg and decide they know the whole story, and then draw conclusions or make judgments based off of that.
I don’t care who has first dibs on seminary girl by virtue of being a first degree relative. Tirtza lost from the second she decided her cousin has it easy.

↑ camp123

Mon, Nov 25 2024, 2:11 am

Why are people assuming that a seminary girl who is 19 and will be trying to get married in just one more year is unable to do real chesed. Real chesed is seeing someone's need and sometimes don't things that are hard to help fill that need. The seminary girl should have seen that her sister needed her help she she should have been the one to offer to come to her at least every other week. There is nothing wrong for seminary girls spending a few hours a week doing real chesed to benefit someone else at the expense of what they want to do. Seminary's should educate about this. Pushing yourself to do something you don't particular want to do should be a value that's encouraged.

amother

RosePink

Mon, Nov 25 2024, 2:37 am

amother Dustypink wrote:

I'm really surprised at some of these answers.

I could be Tirtza - I had 5 sisters who came over the years and I was the only sibling here but had cousins. It's expected that girls will go their siblings (brother or sister) and I'm sure Tirtza was even shocked she had to ask.

I'm the one who they came to straight from the airport with their suitcases (and some friends), I'm the one they called when they were lost/about hechsherim, I'm the one they called last minute when their shabbos plans fell through, I'm the one they came to almost every yom tov with friends, I'm the one whose couch they plopped on to complain about their roommates (always at bedtime here), I'm the one who they dropped in on to bake because they were in the mood of cookies, I'm the one they did their laundry by, I'm the one they sent their friends to when their friends wanted to Zoom home for a simcha, etc, etc, etc

It's NOT about the help. I actually didn't really need them even when I had only little kids and wouldn't rely on them anyway because they cancel so often for a tiyul/yom iyun/play practice/don't feel well. I get that seminary girls are allowed to be selfish and I almost never actually asked for anything back. BUT, if any of my sisters had gone to a cousin there's no way I would have provided the level of help and comfort I did without massive levels of resentment. At least try to pretend to give back in some way. Some of my cousins did actually go to random non-relatives to do chesed but they also didn't ask as much from me.

Again, it's NOT about the help, but it definitely is about the attitude. Don't take advantage of me.

Right that was also my take, Shiffy didn’t ask Tirtza in advance if she can come for meals, hang out, do laundry, eat suppers etc. whenever she needs while in seminary for the year, it was self understood that of course a Brother/SIL will be there for her and take care of her.
Same way, Tirtza thought it was self understood of course Shiffy would come to her to help out whenever possible, I mean it is her nieces/nephews etc. You’d think she’d want to spend as much time as possible with them.
Had Shiffy had multiple siblings in Israel they’d probably have figured out an arrangement in advance but since Tirtza was the only sibling it wasn’t even a question.
Also I’m confused if Aviva was working overtime why couldn’t she afford a little extra help?