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amother
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 Mon, Nov 04 2024, 8:47 am
| amother Daisy wrote: | But Sara wasn't kept in a box all the time.
K'negdo can mean opposite. But it doesn't only mean opposite, otherwise how do you interpret the mishna, "v'talmud Torah k'neged kulam". Are you saying Torah study is the opposite of kibbud av v'em and gemillut chassidim? Is that what you are thinking each morning while saying this during davening?
And I think saying "I don't want a billboard" is the same as not including a picture of the Queen of England or an author's headshot, is a straw man argument. It is not all or nothing and no one is asking it to be.
It is the complete eradication because we are worried about men's inability to control their own urges that is the distortion. (If an individual woman doesn't want her picture there, great. But making that decision for her if infantilizing to both men and women).
I won't convince you, and in the same way as I think the chareidi view is distorted, I am sure you think the MO one is.
But I think we can all agree it is certainly not halacha to eliminate women. |
Women aren’t being eliminated or infantilized. They’re being sensitive to some people. You are reminding me of the “joke” about the man who saw a chassid on a train and berated him for being stuck in the olden days. But when the chassid told him he’s Amish, all of a sudden it was beautiful how he stuck to his roots and beliefs.
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 8:48 am
| amother Plum wrote: | | I get the Jewish action and quite honestly I don’t remember if they have pictures of women, aside from YU ads. It doesn’t bother me, I’m not reading the magazines for the pictures and sometimes the YU pictures are my relatives so it’s nice to see them. (Male and female.) |
They do. My family is yeshivish but someone used to send us copies of the Jewish Action. I was very impressed by how tasteful the pictures were and it proves to me that it IS possible (if this is your goal).
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 8:49 am
| amother Plum wrote: | | Women aren’t being eliminated or infantilized. They’re being sensitive to some people. You are reminding me of the “joke” about the man who saw a chassid on a train and berated him for being stuck in the olden days. But when the chassid told him he’s Amish, all of a sudden it was beautiful how he stuck to his roots and beliefs. |
Oh please. I don't find it charming how the Amish treat their women either.
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 8:54 am
| amother Plum wrote: | | Women aren’t being eliminated or infantilized. They’re being sensitive to some people. You are reminding me of the “joke” about the man who saw a chassid on a train and berated him for being stuck in the olden days. But when the chassid told him he’s Amish, all of a sudden it was beautiful how he stuck to his roots and beliefs. |
Can you explain the root of the sensitivity?
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Gerbera
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 8:57 am
| amother OP wrote: | | we're MO and somewhat OOT, but moved somewhere else OOT with lots of yeshivish ny/nj transplants. I dont recall anyone talking about mishpacha mag until we moved where we are now. where we are now, everyone obsesses over it. even the guys seem to like to read it. if you're MO or OOT, are you into this mag? |
MO and OOT and don't read the magazine. I had never heard the magazine discussed or mentioned before until this site!
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:01 am
| amother Plum wrote: | | And there are also women who use women pseudonyms. And men who use pseudonyms. And on imamother we’re all using pseudonyms. |
I don't think you'll find a male writer writing under a female pseudonym in a frum magazine, though.
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Teamster
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:15 am
| amother Daisy wrote: | Can you explain the bolded? What is the sensitivity?
(I really appreciate your posts here and on the zahal thread). |
I have no idea what the sensitivity is, lol. The most I can assume is that since it's assur to gaze at a woman's face, they remove the issue altogether by not printing faces in a public place. (But they don't stop their women from walking around in public with their faces visible; that's where this argument falls apart. If they really felt it was an issue, they'd go full Taliban. Like some extremist Jews do unfortunately.)
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:21 am
| June wrote: | | I have no idea what the sensitivity is, lol. The most I can assume is that since it's assur to gaze at a woman's face, they remove the issue altogether by not printing faces in a public place. (But they don't stop their women from walking around in public with their faces visible; that's where this argument falls apart. If they really felt it was an issue, they'd go full Taliban. Like some extremist Jews do unfortunately.) |
That's the issue. No one can articulate what the sensitivity is.
Not to look at women? Well that is obviously seeing all women as sx objects, as a מכשול, which is insulting to men and tznius women.
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Ema of 5
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:26 am
| amother Peach wrote: | I wish there was a huge eyeroll emoji.
Women are not invisible they are just modest DIFFERENCE.. you are choosing To feel slighted.. I'm sorry for you.
The magazine very much features women in many different ways and areas.. we do not a picture to be considered equal. What garbage.
And I don't believe for a second that your daughters will be more content or confident in their lives and feminity because u preach this type of equality to them. |
It’s like the biography books- when they write one about women, all the pictures are of the men in her life- her husband, her sons, he father- and there are no pictures of her! If a woman is appropriately covered and dressed, there is no reason why she can’t be pictured.
I would love for my daughters to have the same opportunity to literally look up to their role models, like my sons do.
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Ema of 5
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:29 am
| amother Plum wrote: | I’ll be the first to say it.
Men and women are not equal.
Just like any other two people aren’t exactly the same.
And a kohein is not a levi is not a yisrael. One isn’t better or worse. They’re just different.
And there are pictures of women in treeo. Just like men. Like in the advice column, there’s a picture of Rabbi Ellis and there’s a picture of Mrs. Heyman.
I actually like not having pictures of people in the Mishpacha, it makes it easier to read. More words and less pictures. Much better. |
You don’t not have pictures of people though. You just don’t have pictures of women. There are pictures of men in mishpacha.
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Ema of 5
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:30 am
| amother Brunette wrote: | | If Harris wins, mishpacha will have to print picture of her. |
They’ll cut her out, just like Clinton was cut out.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:37 am
| Ema of 5 wrote: | It’s like the biography books- when they write one about women, all the pictures are of the men in her life- her husband, her sons, he father- and there are no pictures of her! If a woman is appropriately covered and dressed, there is no reason why she can’t be pictured.
I would love for my daughters to have the same opportunity to literally look up to their role models, like my sons do. |
Biography books about women often have ample pictures of the subject. And biographies of men often include women.
But check this out: https://www.feldheim.com/toras-imecha
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:38 am
| Ema of 5 wrote: | It’s like the biography books- when they write one about women, all the pictures are of the men in her life- her husband, her sons, he father- and there are no pictures of her! If a woman is appropriately covered and dressed, there is no reason why she can’t be pictured.
I would love for my daughters to have the same opportunity to literally look up to their role models, like my sons do. |
Doesn’t the book about Rebitzen Kanievsky have pictures of her?
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:39 am
| Elfrida wrote: | | When the Queen died, they printed photos of Buckingham Palace, the plane carrying her body, and Prince (King) Charles. |
Genuinely curious, for all those who don’t want their husbands and sons looking at women - do you really have an issue with them looking at a photo of an old woman who’s no longer alive?
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mizle10
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:43 am
| amother Daisy wrote: | But Sara wasn't kept in a box all the time.
K'negdo can mean opposite. But it doesn't only mean opposite, otherwise how do you interpret the mishna, "v'talmud Torah k'neged kulam". Are you saying Torah study is the opposite of kibbud av v'em and gemillut chassidim? Is that what you are thinking each morning while saying this during davening?
And I think saying "I don't want a billboard" is the same as not including a picture of the Queen of England or an author's headshot, is a straw man argument. It is not all or nothing and no one is asking it to be.
It is the complete eradication because we are worried about men's inability to control their own urges that is the distortion. (If an individual woman doesn't want her picture there, great. But making that decision for her if infantilizing to both men and women).
I won't convince you, and in the same way as I think the chareidi view is distorted, I am sure you think the MO one is.
But I think we can all agree it is certainly not halacha to eliminate women. |
Sara was not kept in a box, but when avraham was asked where sara is he answered "hiney baohel" (she is in the tent). He wasn't stating where she physically was at the moment, he was saying what her role is.
Even our private areas reflect this concept, men are visible out in the open, women are tucked inside!
In regards to ezer knegdo, rashi says "zacha ezer, lo zacha knegdo lhilachaim". Meaning if a man is worthy his wife will be an ezer, a help to him. If hes not zocheh she will be against him to fight. Knegdo definitely does nit mean equal in this context.
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mizle10
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:47 am
| amother Tan wrote: | | Dont believe it then. My teen age daughter has charedi cousins. She has heard about mishpacha mag. I have never said a word about this subject. But she got very upset when she heard there were no women but yes men in the mag. It had an affect. And we dont even get this mag. |
If she's growing up with the philosophy that women should be treated exactly like men then of course she'll be upset when she's not. My girls are bh growing up very secure in their role as a woman who has a different role than a man and have no issue with women not having pictures in magazines.
One of my children gets pulled out of school once a week for speech therapy. None of my other kids are jealous because it's clear he has a lisp and this is what he needs. They are different people with different strengths and weakness and different needs. If I were to preach that all my kids are exactly equal of course they would be upset about not getting to miss class once a week!
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amother
Gold
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:47 am
| amother Aqua wrote: | The Jewish Action is monthly, not weekly, so it's not the same.
But for those of you who are worried about the slippery slope- the Jewish Action does a really good job, IMO, in publishing the right kind of pictures. That may be because it's published by a non profit... it's sad to think that if the other magazines were to start publishing photos of women they would not do as good a job. |
Actually, it's quarterly.
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salamanca
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:51 am
| amother Aqua wrote: | | Oh please. I don't find it charming how the Amish treat their women either. |
Please move this comment to the Amish forum!
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amother
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Mon, Nov 04 2024, 9:59 am
| mizle10 wrote: | Sara was not kept in a box, but when avraham was asked where sara is he answered "hiney baohel" (she is in the tent). He wasn't stating where she physically was at the moment, he was saying what her role is.
Even our private areas reflect this concept, men are visible out in the open, women are tucked inside!
In regards to ezer knegdo, rashi says "zacha ezer, lo zacha knegdo lhilachaim". Meaning if a man is worthy his wife will be an ezer, a help to him. If hes not zocheh she will be against him to fight. Knegdo definitely does nit mean equal in this context. |
That is Rashi's reading. But lots of commentators say different
See what the Chibbah Yetira writes
כנגדו שווה אליו כמו במסכת פאה (פרק א) ותלמוד תורה כנגד כולם עכ"ל, כי ברא את האשה במדרגת האדם ולא ככלי־לידה בלבד, ולכן כאן נאמר אשה מה שאין כן בפרק א' נאמר זכר ונקבה כי שם מיירי מצד גופם כהמשך הכתוב שם ויאמר להם אלקים פרו ורבו. הקב"ה ברא את האשה שווה לאדם כדי שתשפיע עליו, כי האדם אינו מושפע מבריה פחותה, ולכן כשהביא לו שאר בהמות וחיות ולאדם לא מצא עזר כנגדו. לא טוב היות האדם לבדו אפשר שיהיה טוב לאדם עם אשה ואפשר שלא, אבל ללא אשה חוסר הטוב הוא
Or the Gur Aryeh
זכה נעשה לו עזר וכו'. דאם לא כן "כנגדו" למה לי, והכי פירושו לפי זה – "אעשה לו עזר" שהוא עזר כנגדו, כי זה העזר אינו עזר כמו האב לבן או בן לאב, דלעולם לא יתנגדו זה את זה, אבל עזר זה יהיה "עזר כנגדו", כי האשה שהיא חשובה ושקולה כמו האיש – ומסייע לאיש, כי האיש מביא והאשה מתקנת לו – זה נקרא "עזר כנגדו". לכך אם לא זכה – היא כנגדו לגמרי. אבל האב לבן אינו כנגדו לעולם. כך יש לפרש לפי פשוטו, ואם לא היה כן לא היה מביא רש"י מדרש זה שאינו קרוב לפשוטו. ויש בזה דבר נעלם עוד, כי הזכר והנקיבה הם שני הפכים זה זכר וזאת נקיבה, אם זכה מתחברים בכח אחד לגמרי, כי כל שני הפכים מתאחדים בכח אחד כאשר הם זוכים, כלומר שהשם יתברך שעושה שלום בין ההפכים – מקשר ומחבר אותם, אבל כאשר אינם זוכים, אז לפי שהם הפכים גורם
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