Soo disappointing, Concert Vent

↑ watergirl ↓

Today at 9:44 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

You are really coming across as a jew hating on other jews. An anti Semitic jew.

I was thinking the same thing about some other comments on this thread actually.

I'm not a mod of this forum but seeing some of these comments about other Jews, going both ways - it's hurting my heart.

Let's try to be kinder in how we talk about each other please. And lets remember there are frum women on this site who wear pants. I hope none of them see the comment here where someone said they prefer for their daughters to assume a women in pants is a non-Jew rather than assume it's a Jew in pants.

amother

↑ Mintcream ↓

Today at 10:04 am

watergirl wrote:

Are we supposed to assume that everyone is Jewish? Because most people in the world are not Jewish. There's nothing wrong with assuming that any random person that doesn't look obviously Jewish, or there's no indication on them that they're a jew, is not a jew.
Of course we shouldn't talk down on or look down on anyone, but there's nothing wrong with not assuming that everyone is Jewish. Because most people are not.
If a women that happens to be Jewish, but doesn't look like that in any way, gets offended because people don't assume she's Jewish, I think that it's her problem, not ours. If they want people to know that they're Jewish, they need to show something for it.

(I don't think anyone here thinks that just because a women may wear pants, she doesn't look Jewish. It's usually not just the wearing pants.... I'm sure that the women on here that may be wearing pants, are frum shomer torah women.)

amother

↑ Smokey

Today at 10:27 am

I’m a lot older than most of you. I did not go to the concert but my daughters did.
The original complaint of this thread was that the concert seemed to have been cut short. My daughters definitely spoke about that and they were upset but they still had a good time.
They showed me clips of the concert. It reminds me so much of a performer from back in my days when I was a teen. Does anyone remember Kineret? She was so popular when she was in her 20’s maybe young 30’s. Now she’s probably in her mid fifties and doesn’t perform like she used to but the styles of the two performers are so similar. Not just the voice (which is similar) but the moves, Israeli tone, interaction with the audience… and I remember that 30+ years ago there were those who complained that they didn’t approve and certain schools told the students that they shouldn’t attend. This was all before internet days/ no social media etc so things didn’t get as carried away as they are today.
Many people still attended her concerts even if they didn’t 100% approve of everything. People still wanted entertainment and to be in a room full of frum people.
I’m going to assume that bracha watched many Kineret performances and saw how much the audience enjoyed. Since she seems to be equally talented she continues to entertain in this fashion.
It seems like the dancers are Israeli. Probably some not religious, maybe some are… but they probably felt so good about themselves that they were performing for religious women in an all female crowd.
Just like back then, whoever didn’t think it was for them, they just didn’t go. No need for a whole write up about what you think is okay or not okay.
Whoever enjoys this type of performance, go and enjoy.
It’s probably wrong to discuss publicly what all your concerns are. Keep in mind that people really know what is considered proper and appropriate and they aren’t going to check with anonymous people for their opinions.

amother

↑ Green

Today at 10:30 am

watergirl wrote:

As a baalas teshuva, I REALLY would like to see the source of him saying this. I want to believe he is misquoted. If you can point me to the source, I would appreciate it. I googled and got nothing.

I'm thinking back to the families who hosted my friends and I when we were NCSYers and while I cringe at memories of myself, I am forever grateful that my hosts did not worry about any dirt when I sat at their shabbos tables.

As a side note, I was a guest at the table of one of the heads of a chassidish court when I was in 8th grade. At first, our NCSY advisor had the girls go to a back room. The rebbe himself called for us to join him at his table and had ME sit directly across from him. I will never forget that moment.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread anymore but I absolutely wanted to comment on this...

I don't know where the quote is. I've heard it many times, but you're correct that I should try to find a source instead of relying on it.

Kiruv is a huge and beautiful mitzvah. I grew up traditional and have tremendous gratitude to people who along the way were open minded and open hearted enough to take the time for this. My teenage son is student of Rav chaim mintz and is involved in Oorah. We have many first cousins and nephews who aren't frum and we are loving and have an open door.

None of that means that compromise on my children's entertainment, or dress, or language or anything in the interest of integration and diversity or kiruv. Yes my daughters are with their female cousins for a lot of yuntif. No that doesnt mean I want them to share the books they read. No I don't mind that said cousins are in jeans and will refer to their guy friends. Yes I wouldn't want them showing a video of them at a high school dance with the bf to my daughters. There are lines and judgement calls all over. And that's fine.

This singer has been hired for concert by my daughters' schools and camps. I just didn't expect this problem. Is it a huge deal? No but I'll rethink next time.

Would I start a thread? No, I only got involved because people were piling on a poster who referred to the non-BY style dancing as "non Jewish dancers" in a casual assumption. She didn't seem to mean anything by it.

My nephew had his bar mitzvah last month. They had 4 or 5 African American looking, afro sporting dance motivators who were hired to break dance and generally hype things up. One of them told my husband that his grandmother was Jewish and he had a bar mitzvah too. So maybe he was Jewish...that doesn't change the message if I'm explaining the bar mitzvah to you and say "yeah, the dancing was mixed and they also had non Jewish dancers break dancing to hype it up."

↑ fmt4 ↓

Today at 10:34 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

We didn’t say assume everyone is Jewish. We said assume that girls dancing in a Jewish concert are Jewish until proven otherwise.

amother

↑ Blue

Today at 10:34 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

Of course you should not assume everyone Jewish. You should not make assumptions at all. It's disgusting to look at a person and determine if they're Jewish or not based on appearances. Why do you need to make any assumption about their Jewishness? If you see someone and you don't know if they're Jewish or not, you should think, I don't know if they're Jewish or not. Because when you say that Jews only look a certain way, you ARE judging other Jews who are every bit as Jewish as you. There are Jews with tattoos, Jewish women who wear pants, Jews with all sort of different traits. And you are deeming their Jewishness as less than because it doesn't look the way you want it to.

And judging other Jews IS your problem. Many were never exposed to yiddishkeit and have no idea what it means to be a frum Jew. They have an excuse. But you, who onows better, Don have any excuses for judging and making assumptions. And it's your problem, not theirs.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Today at 10:36 am

amother Blue wrote:

This this this!!!! Thank you.

amother

↑ Mintcream ↓

Today at 11:07 am

amother Blue wrote:

Of course we shouldn't go around making assumptions on everyone. But it's not wrong of people to assume that not Jewish looking dancers at a Jewish concert are not Jewish.

↑ watergirl

Today at 11:21 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

Of course we shouldn't go around making assumptions on everyone. But it's not wrong of people to assume that not Jewish looking dancers at a Jewish concert are not Jewish.

Why does any assumption about dancers religion need to be made at all? It would never occur to me to wonder or assume anything (aside from maybe how many years of training they went through or other thoughts on their talent). There is so much going on at a concert, it would be a better experience perhaps to not wonder or assume about a dancer's religion or religious background and observance.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Today at 11:26 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

And we are telling you that Jewish concerts often have non jewish bands, so it's not far fetched to assume that the dancers are not Jewish.

First of all, how do you know that the band members are not Jewish? Second of all, I would say dancers are more a visual and integral part of the experience, and for this singer in particular, if you’ve seen the music video you can see her connection with the dancers. As I said earlier, it took very little research to figure out that the dancers in the music video were Jewish and to assume that they were especially picked for this experience and were probably part of the performance as well.
That takes a little more effort than “ what I consider not Jewish dance moves equals not Jewish. “ try a little harder maybe.

↑ fmt4

Today at 11:38 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

Of course we shouldn't go around making assumptions on everyone. But it's not wrong of people to assume that not Jewish looking dancers at a Jewish concert are not Jewish.

Again, what does not Jewish looking mean? Why do people keep repeating meaningless phrase? Jewish can look black or white or brown, blue or brown or green eyes, any color hair, any way of dress. That is the wonderful thing about being Jewish, that we can find a Jew anywhere, that we never know who can be Jewish.
It is so so ignorant and close minded to keep saying this. You sound like you have never left the house.
Again, if you want sound a tiny bit less naive and quite bluntly, idiotic, then use the phrase not religious, even though that is still somewhat judgmental. At least it has some kind of meaning while “look Jewish” is nonsensical.

amother

Oleander

Today at 12:16 pm

A little story about making assumptions based on looks:

My grandmother is a convert. However my mom and I grew up religious just like the girls in my community. I’m a regular chassidish lady who wears a wigs and dresses appropriately

Here’s the story-afew years ago my kids were young, maybe 7 and 10. And we haven’t told them that their great grandmother is a giyores since there was no reason to as of yet, I was planning to tell them at a later age when they are mature enough.

turns out, a neighbor they play with daily told them that another neighbor said that their grandmother was a [gentile woman] bla bla and these kids have a derogatory view towards geirim to begin with since it’s a community attitude unfortunately and kids learn these things from their parents

So, my kids came running in a panic that Bubby was a [gentile woman]? They were so upset and said they’re embarrassed to go out now since it’s a bad thing to be a hot

I didn’t want to lie, I said yes she is became a giyoress many years ago but now she’s a erliche yid and we are proud of it. I also debated how to address it and decided to call that mother up. She first denied it and said can’t be true, I didn’t even know you’re grandmother is a goyiress (her mother in law happens to know that grandmother very well turns out so I doubt she didn’t know)

I made myself clear that it’s unacceptable. She called me back to explain the situation after speaking to her daughter. Apparently she was standing outside with a friend, and I passed by them as I went home. They looked at me and started discussing me. that friend said who is that? And the words baalus tshuva were mentioned that oh her grandmother was a Baku’s tshuva bla bla (some thought shes a valid tshuva) her daughter was standing right there and overheard, turns out in her mind the 2 terms are the same, and since I don’t dress as religious as her mother who wears a shpitzel, it must be that I’m less of a yid. Those were this little kids words.

I told this woman, teach your children that a lady wearing a sheitel is also a yid. Even if I dressed in pants or uncovered my hair there’s absolutely no excuse to judge based on looks

And for that to go tell my children such a thing which is a VERY derogatory word in this community? For shame!!

I ended up moving from that block due to the issues it caused between the children