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amother
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 Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:30 am
Hi my good friend was very rich then the husband was put in prison for gambling other people's money away
He's out of prison and working hard to provide for his family
Every so often I will give her money for chag each time she would say I'm going to use this to buy clothes or to take kids on outings ,
I use to get upset as I'm a big budget person my kids have fun but on a budget but she gets tzedaka money and her kids get to do amazing things
Anyway my husband said when someone was rich then goes poor u need to give them what they were use to I have accepted this
But before chag she told she's desperate for money for food I gave it to her
Then over chag in shul the husband bidded for a few Aliyas and brought it for same money I gave her
The interesting thing this man won't talk to my husband and does not no that his wife takes money from me sometimes it's a loan and a lot of times it's tzedaka as she asks to borrow but most times never gives it back and a lot of times I have just given her tzedaka before chag
My point is how can her bid for aliyahs when his family is getting tzedaka
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:39 am
I'm curious how much the aliyos sell for? I understand why you feel it's wrong but are we talking $200 or $5000?
How much did you give her?
Also, in these crazy times a family monthly budget can easily be more than $20,000 a month. If you gave a few hundred, how can you say that he was bidding the specific money you gave?
And it seems many people here are having a hard time with the halacha that says that we should support poor people according to their previous lifestyle. If that included bidding for aliyos why are you questioning it?
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:39 am
According to Gemara if a person was reach and used to 2 horses running in front of him, it’s a mitzvah to give them money to be able to do that…
Having said that, l totally get where you’re coming from… I have a close family member (that never had money…) that really struggles financially, which I gave money to when they married off. Later I heard they used the most expensive makeup artist for the wedding (which had a significant gap in price to the rest) to make matters worse, I had a close wedding that time and used someone for exactly a quarter the price for myself. It took true a lot to tell myself I have the same mitzvah of tzedaka regardless where the money went to…
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chestnut
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:44 am
| amother OP wrote: |
The interesting thing this man won't talk to my husband and does not no that his wife takes money from me sometimes it's a loan and sometimes she gives it back
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A loan is to get repaid later. So, she's either paying you back now or will later. Where does tzeddakah come in?
Or you meant that sometimes it's a gift and other times she pays you back?
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:45 am
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Someone said on a thread yesterday that the Gemara which says to give formerly rich people tzedakah so they can keep living their high end lifestyle has a caveat that this should only be done if there are no other poor people in the city. If this is true, then supporting rich people at their former standard is not a thing in today’s day.
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:55 am
| chestnut wrote: | A loan is to get repaid later. So, she's either paying you back now or will later. Where does tzeddakah come in?
Or you meant that sometimes it's a gift and other times she pays you back? |
I edited it
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 8:56 am
| amother Junglegreen wrote: | | Someone said on a thread yesterday that the Gemara which says to give formerly rich people tzedakah so they can keep living their high end lifestyle has a caveat that this should only be done if there are no other poor people in the city. If this is true, then supporting rich people at their former standard is not a thing in today’s day. |
Do we pasken like that gemara?
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amother
Papaya
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:00 am
| amother Vermilion wrote: | According to Gemara if a person was reach and used to 2 horses running in front of him, it’s a mitzvah to give them money to be able to do that…
Having said that, l totally get where you’re coming from… I have a close family member (that never had money…) that really struggles financially, which I gave money to when they married off. Later I heard they used the most expensive makeup artist for the wedding (which had a significant gap in price to the rest) to make matters worse, I had a close wedding that time and used someone for exactly a quarter the price for myself. It took true a lot to tell myself I have the same mitzvah of tzedaka regardless where the money went to… |
100% understand this.
Many many years ago when we were not that well off ourselves a neighbor came collecting for another neighbor who he said didn't even have enough money for groceries. We gave $1,000 which for us was a huge stretch and I did not get anything at all fancy for yt... they gave it through the husband's boss so that he wouldn't know that he was taking from people. Imagine my surprise when a few days later she told me that her husband got a bonus and she had been wanting to buy new window treatments for ages so she decided to use it for that.
I remember being furious and telling my husband that if they had no money how on earth could they use extra for window treatments and not for food?
Many years passed and I am always very hesitant to give actual people money because I know myself and I get upset when I feel like they are using the money to buy things on a higher standard than I did when I was on a budget. And you're talking about people who were never wealthy.
Recently, someone mentioned that a family member could use money making a wedding and I told my husband that I don't know if I could give because even though I do know that they don't have two pennies to rub together, when I hear that they are spending money on renting gowns that even I wouldn't rent for myself because of the cost, I just get so upset! Why are you spending other people's money or even your own money when you have nothing, on such high standards?
So my husband looked at me and said that when you give someone else money you need to look at it as if it's not yours anymore. Just like when you make money on your own and you don't feel like someone should be telling you how to use it... you can't look at it as if it's still your money.
I truly hope that I will be able to reach his level.
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SuperWify
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:10 am
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I don’t understand these threads. If you’re resentful you have no obligation to give them. Period.
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HonesttoGod
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:11 am
Op you yourself said he doesn’t know that she is getting money from you.
She could have used that money for food clothes or any bill. He doesn’t necessarily have great budgeting skills but he obviously doesn’t know about the money you gave right? So that’s not the same money.
I’ve been in this situation too. Giving family tzddakah and seeing them blow their budget on frivolous extras that even I don’t take for myself.
I was told that further than trying to be dlkz on where they spent my money, I have one of two choices. Not to give (because of you give you have to give with your whole heart and fargin what they do with the money) OR give and give up. They will do what they want to do with it. May be stupid may be inconsiderate, you gave you did the mitzvah it’s not yours anymore.
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:13 am
| amother Papaya wrote: | 100% understand this.
Many many years ago when we were not that well off ourselves a neighbor came collecting for another neighbor who he said didn't even have enough money for groceries. We gave $1,000 which for us was a huge stretch and I did not get anything at all fancy for yt... they gave it through the husband's boss so that he wouldn't know that he was taking from people. Imagine my surprise when a few days later she told me that her husband got a bonus and she had been wanting to buy new window treatments for ages so she decided to use it for that.
I remember being furious and telling my husband that if they had no money how on earth could they use extra for window treatments and not for food?
Many years passed and I am always very hesitant to give actual people money because I know myself and I get upset when I feel like they are using the money to buy things on a higher standard than I did when I was on a budget. And you're talking about people who were never wealthy.
Recently, someone mentioned that a family member could use money making a wedding and I told my husband that I don't know if I could give because even though I do know that they don't have two pennies to rub together, when I hear that they are spending money on renting gowns that even I wouldn't rent for myself because of the cost, I just get so upset! Why are you spending other people's money or even your own money when you have nothing, on such high standards?
So my husband looked at me and said that when you give someone else money you need to look at it as if it's not yours anymore. Just like when you make money on your own and you don't feel like someone should be telling you how to use it... you can't look at it as if it's still your money.
I truly hope that I will be able to reach his level. |
It is amazing and takes a tremendous amount of inner work to be able to swallow that… on the other hand, I think about myself… if my husband would get a significant bonus I would also splurge on things I wouldn’t normally and think Hashem sent me money to pamper myself…
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amother
Burlywood
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:14 am
| amother Anemone wrote: | I'm curious how much the aliyos sell for? I understand why you feel it's wrong but are we talking $200 or $5000?
How much did you give her?
Also, in these crazy times a family monthly budget can easily be more than $20,000 a month. If you gave a few hundred, how can you say that he was bidding the specific money you gave?
And it seems many people here are having a hard time with the halacha that says that we should support poor people according to their previous lifestyle. If that included bidding for aliyos why are you questioning it? |
It seems like many people here are having a hard time with the fact that if someone stretches themselves financially to help provide for someone who is supposedly desperate, it’s normal to feel taken advantage of when said “desperate” person then uses the money for things that are NOT necessities (such as expensive jewelry, a fancy car, etc rather than food, utility bills, and so forth).
It’s NOT a mitzvah to shame people who choose not to go into debt (or not feed their family, pay the electric bill, etc) to pay for someone else’s high-end, expensive luxury “needs.” It’s NOT a mitzvah to try to undermine that the Gemara says that aniyim in the city take precedence.
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amother
Eggplant
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:20 am
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Next time just call the grocery store and offer to pay down some of their credit. Or call their kids school and offer to pay some of their tuition bill. This way you know the money is getting used for what you want.
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WhatFor
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:23 am
| amother OP wrote: | Hi my good friend was very rich then the husband was put in prison for gambling other people's money away
He's out of prison and working hard to provide for his family ...
how can her bid for aliyahs when his family is getting tzedaka |
Op, look at your first sentence and look at the last. That's how. This is someone who was so addicted to gambling he wound up in prison for his addiction. Prison isn't going to cure an addiction. He likely has a very serious issue. I feel bad for your friend.
If she needs money for food, consider buying her credit at a local grocery (if they'll do that) or giving in ways that won't enable her DH to misspend their resources.
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amother
Crystal
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:26 am
Is it possible that there is financial abuse going on? To me it sounds highly plausible that he's not a good guy.
Maybe he blows money that the family needs, so she needs to collect behind his back to feed her kids. These things happen.
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amother
Clear
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:27 am
| amother Burlywood wrote: | It seems like many people here are having a hard time with the fact that if someone stretches themselves financially to help provide for someone who is supposedly desperate, it’s normal to feel taken advantage of when said “desperate” person then uses the money for things that are NOT necessities (such as expensive jewelry, a fancy car, etc rather than food, utility bills, and so forth).
It’s NOT a mitzvah to shame people who choose not to go into debt (or not feed their family, pay the electric bill, etc) to pay for someone else’s high-end, expensive luxury “needs.” It’s NOT a mitzvah to try to undermine that the Gemara says that aniyim in the city take precedence. |
I would assume it’s standard ma’aser. Not the person giving beyond ma’aser.
I’ve been there too. You have to learn that once the money was given it’s theirs.
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amother
Marigold
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:37 am
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This reminded me how a friend borrowed $700 over ten years ago. I told her I would need part back within a couple months. I never got it back. But I do know she bought matching outfits for her nephews.... Several times.. it is hard not to judge ...
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amother
Stoneblue
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 9:42 am
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One solution is to give gift cards to the local supermarket. That way you know it will be spent on food.
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seeker
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 10:13 am
Didn't read replies but I don't see a contradiction in the OP. Could be her husband/marriage is not healthy, he's in denial spending money on aliyas while not providing her with enough money for food.
I'm not saying whether or not you should continue to give. I'm just answering "why is she asking for money for food while he spends on unnecessary things."
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amother
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Mon, Oct 21 2024, 10:52 am
| amother Marigold wrote: | | This reminded me how a friend borrowed $700 over ten years ago. I told her I would need part back within a couple months. I never got it back. But I do know she bought matching outfits for her nephews.... Several times.. it is hard not to judge ... |
Have you discussed it with her? She really may have forgotten about it.
My husband borrowed money from a friend years ago when he was single and was too broke to pay him back at the time. He only remembered about it a few months ago and immediately paid him back.
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