“Dont live beyond your means”- what if that’s not possible

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 10:51 am

amother Cappuccino wrote:

It's tough.
For us it means not to eat the food others see as necessities. I served pasta with a choice of ketchup or olive oil for Shabbos lunch yesterday. That was it.
Today's lunch was oatmeal porridge.
Cheap meals like that. (Not always, but often enough.)
Only frozen vegetables, not fresh. That's what not living beyond our means means to us.
We dilute the kiddush wine (rav says that's okay)
We don't buy clothes but over the years we've found people who are happy to hand down theirs so it's not a stress for us anymore.
And many more things.

Your kids and family are not hungry with just pasta? Our bodies also need protein (mind you my protein is a full chulent without meat- so beans is the protein and potatoes the carbs, and homemade mayo dips and avocado for the fats abd egg salad for the protein with homemade challah). But no we cannot live on just pasta. And I’m not saying this to be unrealistic this is a basic human need

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 10:55 am

thegiver wrote:

For us it means: basic groceries (I don’t skimp on fruits or veggies tho bec that means mental health). I see what other parents pack their children and we stick with basic sandwiches and snacks. We don’t eat out.

Used clothing and shoes. (Except for oldest kids who need new shoes)

Car repairs held off until really necessary

Davening to Hashem and having Bitachon that when he sends us necessary expenses He will take care of them.

Try very very hard not to use credit card and cash only to keep track of expenses.

So we try very hard to not use credit cards also. That’s not what this thread is about. This thread is about when I don’t have the ability to not use credit card. I’m not fixing my car if it’s not necessary, I’m not doing expensive dental work if it’s not necessary. We never ever ever eat out. I’m talking about basic life itself- healthy food and groceries for a growing family and necessary unavoidable large expenses.
And I daven a lot and learn shaar habitachon daily

amother

↑ Acacia ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 11:01 am

amother Cappuccino wrote:

Do you have Tomchei Shabbos where you live? They usually give out chicken and growing children really need protein.

amother

↑ Springgreen ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 12:59 pm

amother OP wrote:

First of all Hugs!
I grew up like this and I totally understand how the stress and anxiety can totally consume you. It is also improtant to realize that yes, you are in the place that you should be getting any kind of assistance you can - tomchei shabbos, food pantries, ect.
There is no shame in two people working hard who need help, to reach out for assistance. Tuiton assistance as well. This is literally what tzedaka is made for, people who can not afford the basics.

Back to your Topic line:
What I have seen from my family and dh's family, is that often not living within your means forces you to a place where you can not afford your basics.

So basically, we all know that things like the boiler breaking, the roof leaking, the car breaking down, dental work will hit us. There needs to be room in the budget to plan for contingenceys.

Otherwise, what happens, is these things go on the credit card, that start racking up interest as they build up and you don't have extra cash, end then you have even less income then you used to have, and now you can't afford basics like shoes and food that is more substantial then pasta.

It gets worse and worse, as more and more income gets swallowed by the cc and minimum payments.

Something I see a lot is home ownership. People buy before they have a lot of kids paying tuiton. So they make calculations on what they can afford, and they are right. They thing is when you have a mortgage, it should not be more then 25% of your income. As a frum person, we need to calculate that cheshbon AFTER YOUR TUITON BILL, unless you are willing to homeschool send to public school.
Otherwise, you will not be able to afford life's totally normal curveballs, and over time they will start to sink you, even if you both are working hard at average middle class jobs.

The problem is that housing in frum communities is very expensive, but often there are solutions out there that people don't consider because they think that they can afford the more "normal" option...

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 1:04 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

So we had a savings account we saved for emergencies, it wasn’t much because we never made much. But it was something and then we had more expenses and its long gone. These expenses are not living beyond our means. These expenses are daily life expenses as described above

We have a very small house and our mortgage is low compared to what most of the frum world pays. It’s a bit less than 25 percent of our income (mortgage plus taxes and homeowners insurance payment). Despite our best efforts to try to increase that income many times.

When you say not living within your means forces you to a place where you can’t afford basics- what do you mean? If we didn’t eat for a few years we’d be better off? Ya we probably would but we’d also be dead 🤔.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 1:06 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

And I didn’t say anything about stress or anxiety consuming me…

amother

↑ Springgreen ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 1:56 pm

amother OP wrote:

I meant that for example, when you buy a house or a car that you cant afford, or you can afford now but not in 5 years when you have 3 tuitions, you will end up not having enough money for food.

My guess is that tuition is what is killing you.
You said that your mortgage is 25% of your income, but my guess is that if you look at your income as post tuition, it is way more then 25%.

Lets say you make 100k together (50k each) and then you have a mortgage of $2,200 a month. That's very affordable.
But if you are paying 50k to tuition ( which is probable even with breaks if you have teenagers and a say 6 kids), then your mortgage is actually 50% of your income, which basically leave you with no margin to live.

What I see happen a lot, is people buy lets say when there income is 80k, and they have one elementary school tuition, and maybe another two in daycare.
They take the 2,200 mortgage on, which is around 25%, and totally reasonable.

Then the kids grow, tuitions grow, they have a few more, and all of a sudden the margin they had shifts and they are making more money and can afford less and less.

Then they start with credit cards, for a bit it works and then the interest starts hitting.
Now more and more of the income is swallowed by the interest on the minimum payments. And then life hits, and things happen and you fall deeper and deeper into the hole.

amother

↑ Springgreen ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:05 pm

GLUE wrote:

Can you list some of the solutions?

Micro living is one - we live bought an apartment we can afford, split it into two small 60m apartments and rent out half.
We took a 15 year mortgage, and are trying to pay it off in 7.
Hopefully by the time we need the space and have more kid the mortgage will be payed off and we can live in the whole thing.

I have friends who did this in Lakewood - they converted the garage into a studio, and they rent out the house and the basement. They also are trying to pay it off in 7 years, and when they have another baby they will move to the basement and rent out the studio as a shabbos apartment.

The other solution is moving out of the frum radius - like our friends who move a few blocks on the other side of Flatbush Ave, and walk a half hour to shul.

There is also moving out of town - a lot of our friends are going to Cleveland because of the cheap housing.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:10 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

Thanks for knowing more about my finances than I do.
We don’t have much tuition because we live in a voucher state. But thanks for trying to be smarter than me about this. As if people who have money just know more than those of us who don’t 🤷‍♀️

amother

Olive ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 2:14 pm

The problem is that often you trade in one expense for another.

In Lakewood, housing is somewhat high, but full tuition is lower and kosher food (chicken, meat, fish, dairy) and tznius clothes are more reasonable.

Chicago, housing is cheaper but full tuition is higher, kosher food is more and things like basic simchos are expensive.

Moving out to someplace like Louisville Kentucky. Maybe housing is very cheap, but you have to send high school kids out which adds a tremendous cost of dorming or boarding and bringing them home for Yom Tov.
And kosher food and Chalav Yisroel is even more expensive.

amother

↑ Acacia ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:01 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

First of all Hugs!
I grew up like this and I totally understand how the stress and anxiety can totally consume you. It is also improtant to realize that yes, you are in the place that you should be getting any kind of assistance you can - tomchei shabbos, food pantries, ect.
There is no shame in two people working hard who need help, to reach out for assistance. Tuiton assistance as well. This is literally what tzedaka is made for, people who can not afford the basics.

Back to your Topic line:
What I have seen from my family and dh's family, is that often not living within your means forces you to a place where you can not afford your basics.

So basically, we all know that things like the boiler breaking, the roof leaking, the car breaking down, dental work will hit us. There needs to be room in the budget to plan for contingenceys.

Otherwise, what happens, is these things go on the credit card, that start racking up interest as they build up and you don't have extra cash, end then you have even less income then you used to have, and now you can't afford basics like shoes and food that is more substantial then pasta.

It gets worse and worse, as more and more income gets swallowed by the cc and minimum payments.

Something I see a lot is home ownership. People buy before they have a lot of kids paying tuiton. So they make calculations on what they can afford, and they are right. They thing is when you have a mortgage, it should not be more then 25% of your income. As a frum person, we need to calculate that cheshbon [b]AFTER YOUR TUITON BILL, unless you are willing to homeschool send to public school.
Otherwise, you will not be able to afford life's totally normal curveballs, and over time they will start to sink you, even if you both are working hard at average middle class jobs.[/b]

The problem is that housing in frum communities is very expensive, but often there are solutions out there that people don't consider because they think that they can afford the more "normal" option...

Wrong wrong wrong.

If someone doesn't buy and they keep on renting, then their rent just keeps going up and up, but if they would have bought their mortgage stays the same. Even in non inflationary times rents go up, and there's always going to be a period of inflation at some point. That's why everyone I know urges young people to buy as soon as possible, stretching themselves to the max so that they can afford a house.

Also, in the normal derech hatevah people start off on the lower end of their income potential, hopefully they will make more as the years go on.

For example, someone who bought a house 30 years ago in my area was paying around $1200 to $2000 a month mortgage, which was a lot of money back then, but to rent a house nowadays it would be double or even triple. And eventually you're paid up and you own the house outright. Buying a house is excellent advice, to take into consideration all your expenses for the next 30 years is not a wise move in that respect.

amother

↑ Springgreen ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:18 pm

amother Acacia wrote:

I never said don't buy - I truly believe in buying and paying off your house as quickly as possible. Its true that most peoples incomes go up - but the thing is when you have a lot of kids, and a lot of tuitions usually the margin you have is larger at the lower income.

You see this all the time - the young kollel couple who is living a very comfortable lifestyle, while the parents are choking with paying off the wedding, supporting, while paying tuitons.

What I said is buy what you can afford and pay it off quicker then 30 years. Then, if you have the ability to upgrade to a nicer/bigger home, you can do that, but if you don't at least you have that expense eliminated.

Usually the first 15 years of a marriage, couples have more cash fluidity, even with kollel.
Even if they have a kid right away, by the time they are married 15 years the kid is max 14, which is just starting High School where things start getting really expensive.

BTW you can even live in EY - like we are ( although not in yerushalyim). Most girls don't get married at 18 these days, and if you are working and saving, you should have a nice nest egg for a down payment.

amother

Beige ↓

Sun, Sep 29 2024, 3:24 pm

amother Olive wrote:

you skipped over places like south bend, cincinnati, cleveland....