Army issues | Imamother

↑ Ruchi ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:56 am

DrMom wrote:

That a frum person would even consider such a thing is such a chilul Hashem.

OP, can you visit your family abroad on your own this year?

I agree that your post comes off as really tone-deaf. There are thousands upon thousands of men serving and no, it is not always convenient for them or their families. There are support networks and resources available for such families. Perhaps this is something you should explore.

When the State of Israel was founded. They knew that the majority of the Charedi population would never agree to serve and be part of the melting pot of the secular army.
They could have denied citizenship to ppl who wont serve and they would have had to relocate to Europe or the States.
Now starts the bashing.....

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 6:59 am

Ruchi wrote:

I think that besides Israel, only one other country in the world has mandatory army conscription. I am not talking about the current war situation.

That is neither accurate nor in the slightest bit relevant.

There are tens of countries worldwide that have mandatory conscription (google it), but the only thing that's relevant here is that OP is living in a country that is one of them. If there is a law in your country you're required to abide by it. If you happen to have citizenship in another country you can feel free to live in that other country, if you like its laws better.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:00 am

Ruchi wrote:

Not bashing, but let's say what you're saying is true. What difference does it make?

↑ Ruchi ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:02 am

amother Electricblue wrote:

That is neither accurate nor in the slightest bit relevant.

There are tens of countries worldwide that have mandatory conscription (google it), but the only thing that's relevant here is that OP is living in a country that is one of them. If there is a law in you're country you're required to abide by it. If you happen to have citizenship in another country you can feel free to live in that other country, if you like its laws better.

Absolutely. There is free choice if you have citizenship elsewhere.

BatyaEsther ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:02 am

I can’t advise you on what to do, I don’t know your needs, or situation. I only want to stress the importance of being yashar b’eyney Hashem. I have such issues with the idea above about play-acting crazy to trick the army. Seek advice, do what you need to do, but remember above all, quite literally, Hashem knows the emet.

amother

↑ Electricblue ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:07 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

I'm litvish yeshivish but lying? acting crazy?

For whoever mentioned mental health - my son has a full exemption due to mental health issues and I don't wish it on anyone.

Well said. And wishing you and your son strength and healing.

↑ Ruchi ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:09 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

I'm litvish yeshivish but lying? acting crazy?

For whoever mentioned mental health - my son has a full exemption due to mental health issues and I don't wish it on anyone.

Msy Hashem send him healing with menuchas hanefesh.

ora_43 ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:18 am

amother OP wrote:

Now the dichui is up and they drafted him! He is supposed to show up to the army in a few weeks. We are supposed to go to America for succos in a month. If we leave we can’t come back. If we stay we can’t leave until this is cleared up which can take months.

Are you sure the above is true? What do you mean by "he is supposed to show up to the army"? Like, does he have an assigned unit already? An official enlistment date?

Based on everything else you're saying it sounds like maybe what he has is a date at which he's supposed to show up at the enlistment office? That is very different from actually starting the army. My oldest started the enlistment process about a year about, and is beginning service in April 2025. In the meantime there are no travel restrictions whatsoever.

Of course the process moves faster if you're 18+, but it's not like he's going to go to the office and be sent immediately to a base to start service.

I might be missing something here. I'm only familiar with the process if you are enlisting, not if you're not. But do double check with people who are really and truly familiar with the legal issues before assuming you have to choose.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:20 am

I would not fake mental issues.

Actual extremist views can be a reason for exemption. Not something I would fake, but something to consider, if it applies to him. Eg if he believes in following Rambam's hilchot milchama rather than IDF orders, it might help to mention that.

amother

↑ Electricblue

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:23 am

Ruchi wrote:

Absolutely. There is free choice if you have citizenship elsewhere.

Free choice means you can choose to follow the law, or to pay the price for breaking the law. That's how it works in civilized countries.

The added benefit to having an additional citizenship is that you have a third choice, you can flee.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:27 am

The Hebrew terms if necessary:

צו ראשון

If this is what he has, he should be able to just show up and say he's not interested. The army will almost certainly still start the enlistment process anyway, but in the meantime he should be fine to travel. When he comes back he can keep fighting not to be enlisted.

תאריך גיוס

If he's being enlisted, then he will face travel restrictions afterwards.

If he's never been to an enlistment office and hasn't been assigned a unit, then you're definitely dealing with a tzav rishon and not official enlistment.

↑ Ruchi ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:31 am

Quote:

The added benefit to having an additional citizenship is that you have a third choice, you can flee.[

This precisely what I was referring to.

Last edited by Ruchi on Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:31 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

I'm litvish yeshivish but lying? acting crazy?

For whoever mentioned mental health - my son has a full exemption due to mental health issues and I don't wish it on anyone.

I 100% agree with you that’s why we are not doing it.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:31 am

Ruchi wrote:

They could have denied citizenship to ppl who wont serve and they would have had to relocate to Europe or the States.

1. How would that have been better than the current situation??? Maybe I'm missing something but it sounds like you're saying more or less, "since they let hareidim live there, they have to let them live how they want, including no army service"? I'd think it'd be the other way around: if you're not going to let hareidim avoid army service, at least allow them to remain equal citizens of the state (who can, among other things, protest mandatory army service and vote against it). Barring someone from citizenship (let alone forced relocation) is much much worse than threatening them with a few weeks in army prison.

2. No Zionist could in good conscience bar Jews from the land of Israel for anything less than a true threat to public welfare.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:34 am

He has shown up to the enlistment office to get exempt and they didnt give it to him. Now he got notified that he is getting drafted and needs to show up on a certain date to start the process. Before that date he can leave but after that date if he doesn’t show up he can’t leave.

amother

Peony

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:38 am

My son is making aliyah and enlisting as a lone soldier in months.

We have no Israeli family.

My son feels his responsibility to other yidden there. I respect that. I cry weekly, privately about my only son leaving and putting his life in danger to protect other yidden. I feel like I’m giving up my son. I hope for the best and fear the worst.

It hurts when I read other Israelis shirk this responsibility, considering fraud to do so, and justifying it as frum yidden and or with Torah/rabbis.

It hurts my neshomah. My emunah.

I wrote this not to be mean or hurt anyone. I write this so others may understand the impact of their actions and words.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Tue, Sep 17 2024, 7:52 am

amother OP wrote:

But if he does show up, then he can still travel afterwards, and he should still have at least several weeks to fight it.

I'm pretty sure that being barred from leaving the country would only happen if he failed to show up at least twice (I think even 3 times?), but do check with an expert on that.

Potentially simpler: can he call and ask to move his draft date? If he hasn't tried this I'd start there. If the draft date is after the planned trip, no conflict (yet).