I don't get it; how do people survive?

↑ GLUE ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 9:44 am

imaima wrote:

Being not the pioneering type is a luxury too.
People who are desperate overcome such inconveniences just as they work at jobs that may not always feel pleasant or deal with kids tantrums and sleepless nights.

There has been a few articles in Non-Jewish places like City Lab on how "Drive 'till you can afford" will not necessarily save you money.
Just because you are spending less on housing does not mean that you will spend less on other things and many times other expenses go up.

Many times being a pioneer does not make sense $$$ wise.

Last edited by GLUE on Thu, Aug 22 2024, 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Oleander ↓

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 10:03 am

GLUE wrote:

That is a problem, in the Frum world there is very little if any talk on how to cut expenses. Many places will say the Rich need to cut back, but nothing on how the poor can cut back.

Looking for some tips too.

Not to be snarky but in general the poor don't really benefit from tips because if you are poor there isn't generally any "fat" to cut - assuming you are not spending money foolishly. This isn't a value judgment but just a reality that poor means that you don't have sufficient income to cover your expenses.

Are the ways to save money on food and clothing - probably but I would assume that most people who are "poor" aren't eating rib eye every night.

Do you need "tips" on how inexpensive foods? How to shop for food less expensively?

And then of course it inevitably leads to a heated thread in which there is no agreement on what is a want/lluxury versus what is a need.

↑ GLUE

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 10:27 am

amother Oleander wrote:

There are many people who need to know on how to spend less money on food and cloth, there are many people who just don't know.

When I was writing about the rich and poor cutting back, I was thinking about Simcha's. There is a lot of talk on how the rich must cut back so the poor does not feel bad. I think it's backwards, I think change must come from the bottem. I could be wrong about this.
but, I am tiered of reading either two types of articles;
a)The rich needs to cut back
b)you don't need a party planer, a $300 hat, this and that. But nothing on what you should do and how you can make a Simcha without it.
I don't think people want or need Takana's as much as guidelines on how to make a cheaper Simcha.

amother

↑ Oleander

Thu, Aug 22 2024, 10:37 am

GLUE wrote:

There are numerous threads on how to eat well for less money - recipes, how to shop, where to shop. And there are threads on how to dress well for less including specific links when asked for.

Also threads on how to do a simcha for less money and have it still be a lovely affair.

If people truly need advice on these matters, either read one of the numerous threads or ask for specific advice.

I don’t mean that people shouldn’t veer into tangential matters but I think specific advice is best obtained with a thread that indicates the person is seeking specific advice and even better advice as to the specific factors that are relevant as to what kind of advice would be most helpful for individual circumstances. While some factors are universal others might depend on specific factors such as family size, family composition, geographic location etc.

amother

↑ Daisy

Fri, Aug 23 2024, 2:00 pm

amother Oleander wrote:

If you are talking about the generation of Jews whose parents immigrated prior to WW II, the parents really were Orthodox only because there was no alternative in Europe.

They probably were more equivalent to Conservative or "traditional" than being Orthodox in the way it is used currently.

It wasn't as if their children were going OTD in the sense it is used today because their children's level of religious observance was fine with their parents. There wasn't a "derech" they were going off because the parents weren't particularly observant except in the sense that they were not Xtians and had a Seder of some kind and went to synagogue for RH and YK only.

So saying that going to public school was the "cause" is backward in terms of cause and effect - the kids went to public school because the parents weren't frum in America and probably had been Orthoxprax in the "Old Country" because there was no alternative in terms of the social world they inhabited.

In the cliche of the software industry - it was a feature and not a bug as assimilation was the goal for them.

This is not actually true.

Many did assimilate voluntarily, and were not unhappy that their children were not religious, but there were many, many very frum parents who cried buckets of tears when their children became irreligious.

If you read up on the history of many towns across the US, on the history of many communities such as Philadelphia and even New York, there were thriving frum communities with real shuls, real learning, really frum communities. But the older generation were not able to inspire the younger generation to continue in their ways, and the lack of religious education for young people100% accelerated the process. It's hard to believe in something you know nothing about.

amother

Puce

Fri, Aug 23 2024, 2:54 pm

amother Poppy wrote:

And plenty of other families don't go on vacation, don't buy luxuries, are wearing old shaitels, don't eat out, and can't even try to live up to anyone's standards.

Those families are legitimately struggling.

No amount of lowering standards will help when you never bought into those standards to begin with.

That is us. I cannot work and raise a family at the same time. I have incredibly difficult pregnancies, recoveries and colic babies. And when the pregnancy end without a baby, those recoveries are oftentimes even worse, because it's usually due to health complications....

Dh works FT. Plus 2 more side hustles.
He makes close to 200k.
Mortgage is 3k. We bought a fixer upper on the outskirts of town. We renovated the bare minimum. Took out a 97% mortgage. And used our last penny to buy appliances and used furniture.

We really try to not spend as much as possible. We've gone away for 3 days once every 5 years to cheap places on off seasons just for a desperatebreak. We have one used car....
I bought a sheitel last year after wearing one for 10 years!
But we have growing kids bh. 2 of them with adhd. One has odd on top of that and, well, therapists and psychiatrist and replacing broken items all cost $$$$$....
And trying to give them extracurriculars to build up their confidence and their skills...
Another kid had a mild form of dyslexia, so specialty kria tutors.... all are $$$$ so even though we have a small family (4 kids) and a small mortgage and a 200k income, at the end of the day, we are barely making it.

We have less than $200 in the bank to ride us over until dhs next paycheck which is in a weeks time.
Bh kids already have uniforms. But they still need shoes, supplies, and book fees for school which starts in less than 2 weeks. Plus the regular stuff. Then comes yumtov.

This year before pesach, dh was really stressing. But we both were optimistic thst hashem will def work His magic as he's done in the past.

At the end, dh got an unexpected bonus before yom tov, from his ft job (it's not even a Jewish owned or aware company! But somehow his bonus came early! ) AND from one of his pt jobs.
Then one of the sponsors for an org he volunteers for, gifted everyone a credit in the butcher, matzoh bakery and fish store!
At the end of it all, not only did we manage, but we were able to help out family with close to 1k!
No I didn't get the second sheitel I wanted. We didn't get to do the more fun chol hamoed trip. But we had a beautiful yom tov. Everyone had something new for yom tov and felt good about themselves.
And my family that we gave this $$$ to had whatever that 1k couldn't but them!

He is always looking out for us. We just have to trust and let Him do his magic.

I often think, how would I survive had I not had emunah??? #tyh!

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Aug 23 2024, 2:57 pm

amother OP wrote:

Financially?
With a $3000 to $5000 morgage. And by the way, where can you find a normal size house these days with a $3000 morgage?
Food, tuition, insurance. And then add all the extras.
Even with both parents working, they are making $120 combined? It doesn't add up.
How on earth do people survive?

I’m terrified about owning and paying a mortgage. We’re thinking about buying now more than ever and I don’t see how a mortgage can be less than 5k but I want to put in a tenant in first so I can breathe. I’m so scared, but at the same time I’m not sure it’s smart to continue renting.

rsb

Fri, Aug 23 2024, 4:27 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Ouch. This really hurts. This attitude is WHY we are struggling. Yes, our gross sounds high. But let's do some math - about 30% goes to taxes. Ok, you'll say 200k is also a nice income! Not so much if you are being categorized as a high 300k earner. At 150k we were on jerseycare. We received generous child tax credits every year. Tuition was negotiated. Our kids were on the lunch program, seminary was steeply discounted through FAFSA, etc, etc. Maybe I will open a S/O AMA how is it possible to earn 300K, live simply, and have no money. But your judgement really hurts. If only you would see how we live.

My husband also makes 300k , with 6 kids we are barely making it . No fancy house , no fancy cars , no vacations , taxes . Tuition, insurance groceries eat up most of our money

amother

Smokey

Sat, Aug 24 2024, 12:47 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

Any time suggestions are given on how to cut back, people say they're too extreme and it's wrong and we shouldn't be penny pinching.

Around once a year I post my cheap Yom Tov formula. We are (thank you hashem!) no longer poor, but I've seen no reason over the years to do things differently.

We buy lots of our clothing needs second hand, but if we need something new, buy clothing after succos and Pesach, not before. Everything is on sale and you can get great deals. 2 Yom tov meals cam be super-duper cheap, and still festive. No one needs 4 huge, heavy meals in a row. Soup, homemade bread, and a potato and veggie frittata is yummy, filling, easy and cheap. Find friends to exchange toys with for Yom tov, and you've got some new entertainment for free. New books from the library also works great. Chol hamoed days don't need expensive trips. Set up a game tournament with each family member playing another and winners playing each other until you have a 'championship' game. Winner gets to pick dessert for that night. Cook together while listening to music. Watch a movie together. We live in NJ. Chol Hamoed is the perfect weather for our beautiful beaches and parks.

I've gotten lots of responses about these ideas being 'extreme'. About teen boys 'needing' fancy meat meals. About teen girls 'needing' a standard of clothing and accessories that sounds insane to me.

I hope my kids don't resent our frugal lifestyle. They seem really happy and well adjusted.

Emuna360

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 10:38 pm

I don't know how people survive because they get coffees out I make a coffee for 34 cents in my Keurig how are people going to survive in the future if Moshiaich comes in 80 years everybody who's at the restaurant it's going to be retired on social security social security doesn't take care of you without money also. It's funny though people with strong and Muna who don't waste money of course they do survive somehow and let me tell you there's people who have money and they're not surviving they got sickness in their family they got divorce and it's just as unpleasant as not having money

amother

Black

Mon, Sep 09 2024, 8:07 am

I live in Baltimore. I bought 8 1/2 years ago, in the cheaper area, when housing costs and mortgage rates were cheaper.

My initial mortgage was less than $800 a month (plus taxes and insurance for a total of a little under $1300) for a 30 year loan. We refinanced during covid and our total mortgage bill (including taxes and insurance) is less than $1500. The monthly is slightly higher, but we shaved off 5 years for a 20 year loan instead. With housing pricing going up everywhere and high mortgage rates, I don't know if I could do it if I was trying to buy the same house now. The mortgage alone on my house at it's current value plus current interest rates would be close to 2k a month. Add insurance and taxes...it would still be cheaper than 3k, but not by much

We are middle class and get no government benefits. BH we make a good salary, but with paying full tuition for 4 kids and close to full for the 5th. But we live simply and I don't think my kids feel they are lacking. We try to make wonderful memories that don't include buying things. We get what we need and sometimes a little extra (nothing big). BH for hand me downs (and hand me ups when the younger passes up to the older LOL

) We rarely take vacations and a once every few year vacation we do take consists of a 2 day one night get away most of the time.