Another thread on antisemitism

sequoia ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 12:48 pm

Please note this is “Interesting discussions” and not “politics.”

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the nature of antisemitism, especially among those whose Jewish and general education have not been properly integrated. Hopefully this post will clear some things up.

In every society, every economic system, every country where there is a Jewish presence and many where there isn’t, the antisemite has blamed Jewish people for whatever ills are confronting that particular society. Whatever is considered most wrong or bad in any community is pinned on the Jews. Thus, in America Jews are called “commies” while in the USSR Jews were considered bourgeois and insufficiently devoted to the cause of socialist revolution.

More importantly, whatever views an individual Jewish person holds, whatever his circumstances, whatever position he occupies in society, are all considered “proof” of his guilt. For the antisemite, any Jew is a priori guilty of anything he is accused of.

Nowhere is this illustrated more starkly than in the cases of Beilis and Dreyfus.

Mendel Beilis was a working class man from a Chabad family. He was accused of ritually murdering the Christian child Andrey Yushinsky and using his blood to bake matzah. Because of course that’s what religious Jews do. He was immediately found guilty in the media and the court of public opinion.

Alfred Dreyfus was a secular, wealthy French army officer. He was accused of spying for Germany and selling military secrets to them. Because of course there’s no other reason for him to join the French army and rise in the ranks. He can’t possibly be a loyal, patriotic Frenchman.

Beilis was ultimately found not guilty at trial after a number of expert witnesses testified that human sacrifice and consuming blood are forbidden in Judaism. But before that, he was held for two years in pre-trial detention. Moreover, in general russian society, he was always considered guilty.

Dreyfus was convicted, stripped of his rank, and exiled to Devil’s Island, with no communication with his family or anyone at all. He wasn’t even allowed to speak to his guard. He was twice brought back to France, retried, and convicted again. Only after many, many years of exile and isolation was he finally exonerated.

Two very different men. Two very different societies. Two very different Jews.

Beilis was not a ritual murderer. Dreyfus was not a traitor.

But their respective circumstances and positions were used as proof of their guilt by those who believed that any Jewish person was guilty by default. Any evidence to the contrary was proof of the “wiliness” and “sneakiness” of Jews.

And this blight hasn’t gone anywhere. No, it never makes sense. No, you can’t persuade them of anything. No, they don’t “have a point.”

It is just the oldest hatred.

ftm1234

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 12:53 pm

I think this has been the most sensible post on the subject of antisemetism on imamother.

Sadly very true 🙁

fmt4 ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 12:57 pm

Thank you sequoia. It’s helpful to have input from someone who has probably faced anti semitism firsthand rather than just read about it on twitter.

↑ sequoia ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 12:59 pm

Oh my goodness.

You’re 2 different posters.

Sleepdeprived ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:01 pm

The way some Jews think, that they can 'convince' them that we're not guilty of anything, is also not a new though or idea. It's been tried so many times over the years and has always failed.

A jew will always remain the same guilty jew to them. No matter how liberal, leftist or assimilated we become.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:01 pm

Haha. Yes we are.

↑ fmt4

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:02 pm

Sleepdeprived wrote:

Or how right wing/ conservative/ maga we become.

↑ Sleepdeprived ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:06 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Or how right wing/ conservative/ maga we become.

Also true

Cheiny ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:10 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Or how right wing/ conservative/ maga we become.

It never fails… Can't Believe It

↑ sequoia ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:11 pm

I am here, eagle-eyed, alert, and reporting.

Y’all have a whole forum.

synthy

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:28 pm

Thank you for posting! Now waiting for someone to come chime with BUT the left/right is undeniably more antisemitic 🙄

Fox ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:46 pm

So what can and/or should we do about antisemitism, especially in times when it seems to be growing exponentially out of every possible nook and cranny?

Some poskim advise simply davening for an end to galus; others advise a more proactive approach. Obvously, everyone must ask her own rav for guidance, since it depends a great deal on the person and the circumstances.

But in general, how should we respond?

↑ Cheiny

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:50 pm

synthy wrote:

Thank you for posting! Now waiting for someone to come chime with BUT the left/right is undeniably more antisemitic 🙄

Because it’s not?

↑ Sleepdeprived

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 1:58 pm

Fox wrote:

Perhaps we shouldn't be engaging with the most vocal and hateful ones and giving them more opportunities to voice their hatred?

I wonder which Rav advised Shmuly to debate Candace, I'd love to know on who's head the tremendous chillul Hashem that happened is on. I'd love to know on who's authority my Rebbe's memory was tarnished and twisted.

Last edited by Sleepdeprived on Sun, Sep 08 2024, 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ sequoia ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 2:01 pm

Fox wrote:

Learn. Have an overall concept of history, especially Jewish and world history as they tie in together. So your worldview doesn’t come crashing down. So you’re not vulnerable to nonsense.

Read the transcripts of medieval disputations. Very enlightening. Truly, nothing new under the sun.

One of the consequences of women not learning gemara is not knowing how to respond to “did you know what the Talmud says about non-Jews???!!!” comments. Everyone should know enough not to be intimidated.

Obv that doesn’t mean engaging with every idiot.

↑ Fox ↓

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 3:02 pm

Sleepdeprived wrote:

Agreed.

Next question, should we avoid talking about these people on Imamother to avoid potentially impacting algorithms, some of which are affected even by "hidden" topics.

I see both sides of that question.

#BestBubby

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 3:25 pm

I learned Hashem causes antisemitism to increase when Jews become too assimilated.

There is a saying in yiddish

If a Jew doesn't make Kiddush
The [non jew] will make Havdalah

If a Jew isn't Holy and Separate,
The non jews will separate the Jew out of their midst.

leah233

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 3:35 pm

sequoia wrote:

In every society, every economic system, every country where there is a Jewish presence and many where there isn’t, the antisemite has blamed Jewish people for whatever ills are confronting that particular society. Whatever is considered most wrong or bad in any community is pinned on the Jews. Thus, in America Jews are called “commies” while in the USSR Jews were considered bourgeois and insufficiently devoted to the cause of socialist revolution.

Jews are not called “commies” in the US anymore. In the era of anti-racism, Jews (and particularly Israeli efforts at self defense) are the embodiment of racism and oppression in the antisemitic parts of the US.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 3:38 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Thank you sequoia. It’s helpful to have input from someone who has probably faced anti semitism firsthand rather than just read about it on twitter.

I’m pretty sure we’ve all experienced anti semitism first hand . My first memory of experiencing antisemitism is from when I was only 4 years old .

And I agree with sequoias post .

↑ sequoia

Sun, Sep 08 2024, 3:40 pm

leah233 wrote:

Take a look at FB groups like “commie gibberish of the day” and “common sense extremists: the fire rises.” 90% of the posts are about Jews. The other 10% are about Muslims, black people, etc.
“The era of anti-racism” has not reached everyone.

And that’s exactly my point — whoever an antisemite is, whatever he is most against, he will find some way to blame Jews.