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Fri, Sep 06 2024, 3:34 am

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Conversation

Introduction – Part One

The Mishnah (Avos 1:5) states: “Yosi ben Yochanan Ish Yerushalayim said, ‘Do not excessively converse with a woman (when it is not necessary).’”

The Mishnah explains: “Whenever a man speaks to a woman (unnecessarily), he brings misfortune upon himself. He learns less Torah and will R”l end up in Gehinnom.” (This means that the excessive, unnecessary conversation will lead him to commit sins that will R”l lead toward Gehinnom – see Me’iri and Bartenura.)

The Gemara (Eruvin 53b) brings the following story: R’ Yosi Haglili was traveling and needed directions. He encountered Bruriah, the wife of Reb Meir, and asked her, “B’eizo derech nelech l’Lud, in which direction do we travel to Lud?” Bruriah chastised him, “Glili shoteh! Didn’t our Sages teach us, ‘You shall not converse with a woman excessively’? You should have asked, ‘B’eizeh l’Lud,’ (‘Which to Lud’, a more concise way of attaining the same information, rather than adding the words ‘derech nelech’).”

Conversation – Woman to Man

Introduction – Part Two

The Shulchan Aruch (EH 115:4; see Chelkas Mechokek and Beis Shmuel) lists several behaviors that constitute a violation of “Das Yehudis.” One of the behaviors mentioned is a woman who customarily engages in excessive conversation with men.

We mentioned in a previous email that Rashi makes a comment regarding the mekalel (Vayikra 24:11). Rashi explains that the reason the Torah chose to mention the mother of the mekalel (Shlomis bas Divri) is to highlight the beauty of Klal Yisrael. Despite having been enslaved in the most immoral land, Mitzrayim, for many years, the Yidden nevertheless remained scrupulous in the area of arayos. Only one woman — Shlomis — acted inappropriately.

How did it get to the point that she committed such a grave sin with the Mitzri? Rashi explains, “She would greet and converse with all men.” This is alluded to in her name, as “Shlomis” connotes greeting and “Divri” connotes conversing.

Conversation – Men and Women

1. A man and woman are not allowed to casually converse about any topic that is not necessary, such as news, weather, history or unnecessary details about one’s personal life. For instance:
“Which hall did your parents book for your wedding?”
“How long were you in shidduchim for?”
“What field does your brother work in?”
“Which schools do you send your children to?”

Chazal teach us that when men and women converse (where it is not necessary), it leads to severe sins, as conversation leads to a personal closeness.

(Avos 1:5; Nedarim 20a; Maggid Mishnah, Hilchos Issurei Biah 21:2; Derech Pikudecha, Lo Saaseh 35:13; Chida – Avodas Hakodesh, Moreh B’etzba 309; Maharal, Chiddushei Aggados to Nedarim ibid.)

Necessary Conversation

2. Men and women may converse with each other when it is necessary. Common examples are when they need to accomplish a task together or require pertinent information about someone or something — and a conversation is necessary to accomplish this. It is therefore permitted for men and women to discuss workplace-related matters.

3. Even when conversation is permitted, excessive conversation — I.e., more than necessary — is forbidden.

(Charedim 47:19; Derech Pikudecha, Lo Saaseh 35:13; Nesivos Hashalom 8:9; Chut Shani, EH p. 65)

What is “excessive conversation”?

4. Excessive conversation (which is prohibited even when a necessary conversation is permitted) refers to any conversation beyond what is necessary to the topic at hand. One should not elaborate more than necessary and one should not speak about unrelated, unnecessary details. (Chut Shani, EH p. 65)

Case by Case Caution

5. Since the precise definition of “excessive conversation” varies from case to case, it is important to always remain vigilant that a conversation does not cross the “excessive” boundary; one should always be concise and to the point.

Examples:
When an employee becomes a kallah and a male employer or coworker knows the chassan’s family, one is permitted to tell the kallah in a formal manner, “Mazel tov! I know the chassan’s family; they are great, upstanding people. May it be a kesher shel kayama and a binyan adei ad.” However, one should not go into excessive detail, such as by elaborating how they know each other, and one must also avoid conversing in a friendly, personal manner.
If a female employee has difficulty concentrating at work due to a personal concern, such as a sick relative R”l, and she feels that sharing this detail with her male employer or manager would be beneficial (e.g., so that her employer won’t become upset, or to avoid a potential cut in her salary) – she may speak to him. She may tell him in a general manner, “I’m experiencing a difficulty that makes it hard for me to work,” and may even mention the specific situation (e.g., “So-and-so is R”l sick”). Still, conversation should be limited to the degree necessary for the discussion, without delving into unnecessary details.

At the Workplace

6. When a man and woman need to converse at the workplace, they should make sure to discuss exclusively what is necessary for the work. For instance:

When reviewing details about a client’s account, they should only discuss the necessary details and not irrelevant details about the client.
When dealing with a client of the opposite gender, one should only discuss matters which pertain to the transaction – not irrelevant matters.

Not “Too” Short

7. It is important to note that although one must always converse with a member of the opposite gender concisely and to the point, one must take care not to speak too vaguely, which can easily lead to more conversation. When one speaks so concisely that their intention is unclear, they often need to explain and/or repeat themselves a few times, leading to excessive conversation.

Hence, one should make sure to always speak clearly, even if it means adding a few words to enhance clarity – and thus avoid unnecessary repetition.

(Ben Yehoyada, Eruvin 53b; Shu”t Tiferes Naftali 125:2)

Conversing in a “Heimish” Manner

8. Even when a man and woman are permitted to converse, they must do so in a formal, appropriate manner, like two serious businesspeople working to close a deal. They should not speak in an intimate, “heimish” manner, like friends do.

(See Chut Shani, EH p. 65; Shu”t Mishnas Yosef v. 6, 1:3; Levushah shel Torah siman 80.)

9. This is particularly important for people in sales (I.e., those who sell products, recruit clients, etc.) to bear in mind, as extensive conversations are often necessary in their line of work. When a man and woman interact in this realm, it is important that they stick exclusively to discussion of the product or service, and only to the degree necessary to clinch the sale, win the contract, etc. The salesman should not engage in unnecessary conversation to foster a personal relationship with the hope that it will encourage the other party to work together or make the purchase.

Maintain a Distance

10. When a man and woman converse (where permitted), they must make sure not to stand too close to each other. They must always maintain a reasonable distance. For example:
When a man and woman need to discuss a work-related matter after a meeting, or when passing each other, they should avoid being in close proximity to each other.
If they need to discuss something at a work desk, they should preferably sit across from each other rather than side by side. If this is not logistically feasible, they should at least maintain a substantial distance when side by side.
(Chosen Yeshuos 151:13; Malbushei Mordechai p. 416)

Face to Face

11. When a man and woman speak to each other (where permitted), they should ideally avoid speaking directly face to face, nor should they make eye contact – as that fosters a personal closeness. Instead, they should gaze (or stand) slightly sideways. For example:
When a man and woman need to review papers together, they can look at the papers most of the time to avoid making eye contact. If standing across from each other is necessary, they should stand at an angle and not directly opposite one another.
When sitting at a meeting, it is preferable not to sit directly across from each other, but rather slightly off to the side, so as not to have to speak directly face to face.
When one sits at his/her computer, and a member of the opposite gender stops by for a brief conversation, it is preferable that the one at the computer remain seated, facing the computer, and only turn his/her head slightly toward the other person.
(See Derech Pikudecha, Mitzvah 35:8; Igros Moshe OC 1:40; Chosen Yeshuos 151:13; Yisroel Kedoshim p. 89; Levushah shel Torah 70:2)

Viewing a Computer Screen

12. When a man and woman need to review material on a computer screen together, it is preferable that the material be printed out first. This way, they can each use their own copy to review the material and discuss it while maintaining an appropriate distance, without creating feelings of closeness.

13. Similarly, if they need to review something but do not need to discuss it face-to-face, it is preferable that they should collaborate via email or remote screen access (e.g., Team Viewer, Join.me), and speak via telephone if conversation is required.

Converse Only During Business Hours

14. When a man and woman need to converse for work, they should speak exclusively during business hours. Every effort should be made to refrain from speaking during non-business hours. For example:

- If a male business owner/manager leaves the office in the afternoon and returns after his female secretary has left, he should, if at all possible, not speak to her until business hours the following day. If he needs the information sooner, he should work to get it on his own if at all possible.

- Male and female coworkers who commute to work on the same bus or train should not converse with each other during the commute, even regarding business matters.

(Malbushei Mordechai p. 415; Om Ani Chomah 176)

Only at the Workplace

15. Even during business hours, men and women should try to avoid conversing outside the workplace itself, even regarding business matters. For instance, they should not converse in the corridors of their workplace, or at a store while getting lunch. Conversation — even regarding business matters — should be held exclusively at the workplace.

(Yetzei Adam L’faalo p. 41)

Text Messages

16. Men and women should try to avoid communicating via text messages or similar platforms, and certainly if they are coworkers. This is a more personal form of communication that can easily lead toward closeness. People also tend to be less formal and inhibited when communicating via these platforms.

17. In the event that it is necessary to communicate via text messages or similar platforms, the communication should be in a formal manner. In other words, it should begin with a “Good morning”/“Good evening” type greeting, words should be written in full, and certainly emojis should not be used.

(See Chinuch 188; Shulchan Aruch EH 21:1)

Telephone Conversations

18. All the halachos regarding conversations between men and women apply to telephone conversations as well, provided that the two people know each other or will possibly get to know each other in the future. Therefore, one must be careful not to speak excessively, and/or about unnecessary topics, during telephone conversations with members of the opposite gender.

(Yisroel Kedoshim 10:3; Nitei Gavriel Hilchos Yichud 50; Om Ani Chomah 276)

Don’t Get Too Comfortable
It is recommended: When a man and woman must converse face-to-face and need to sit near each other, they should preferably not make themselves very comfortable there. For instance, they should avoid fully “settling in” to their seats, reclining, etc., as they would when at their own desk or when meeting members of the same gender. The conversation should be coordinated in a manner that suggests that it is temporary.

Email Conversations

19. All halachos regarding conversations between men and women likewise apply to email and other written communication. One must be vigilant when composing emails to ensure that they adhere to all relevant halachos and guidelines.

(See Chelkas Mechokek EH 21:7; Bais Shmuel 17)

20. When composing an auto-reply email, such as when on vacation, the reply should be kept concise and relevant. One should certainly not include unnecessary details about the reason of absence that would encourage unnecessary conversation, e.g., when the absence is due to a personal matter.

Copied On An Email

21. One who communicates via email with a member of the same gender should use extra caution if someone from the opposite gender is copied (cc-ed) in the email, to ensure that the conversation remain appropriate, just as it would if they were communicating in person.

At a Store

22. It is important to note that when a man makes a purchase from a store that has a female employee (or vice versa), they should keep conversation limited to the aforementioned guidelines.

Group Discussions

23. Even when a group of men and women discuss a topic together, they must adhere to the guidelines and not speak excessively. (See Igros Moshe YD 2:109; Achiezer, Kovetz Igros 151; Levushah Shel Torah 80:5)

24. Hence, men and women should not attend meetings or conferences together when unnecessary. (ibid.)

When Someone Else Starts a Conversation

25. If a man attempts to start a conversation with a woman (or vice versa) — e.g., he asks her a question that can lead to an unnecessary conversation — she should reply with a concise answer and move on, either by continuing to do what she was previously doing, or by starting to do something else, to show that she is not interested in conducting an unnecessary conversation.

(See Yaaros Devash, Drush 7)

“Don’t Speak Excessively” is Worth a Groszy!

Once, the holy Kotzker Rebbe zt”l was by his great rebbe, Reb Simcha Bunim zt”l in the city of Peshischa. While there, he went along with Reb Yitzchok of Vorka zt”l to purchase a knife. They encountered a woman who was selling knives. The Vorka Rebbe asked her how much a knife costs. She replied, “Four groszy.” The Rebbe began bargaining with her, saying it is only worth three groszy. The Kotzker Rebbe retorted, “Itche! ‘Al tarbeh sichah im ha’ishah [do not excessively converse with a woman]’ is also worth a groszy!” In other words, he should rather overpay than converse excessively with the woman.

(Emes V’Emunah 451)

Introduction to the Upcoming Emails

Introduction: In the previous emails, we discussed the halachos of how to engage in permissible conversation and avoid prohibited forms of conversation. In the upcoming emails, we will discuss instances where conversations between men and women are always prohibited.

Conversations That Lead to Closeness or Inappropriate Thoughts

26. If a conversation leads to inappropriate thoughts for either the man or the woman, the conversation is always prohibited. (Chinuch, Mitzvah 188; Igros Moshe, EH 4:60; Chut Shani EH pp. 48, 68)

27. Similarly, if the conversation will lead toward a personal relationship between the man and woman, it is always prohibited. (ibid.)

Speaking with Pleasure or Closeness

28. If a man and woman converse and enjoy it due to the fact that the conversation is with a member of the opposite gender, it borders upon being an issur d’Oraysa of abizrayu d’giluy arayos, for which one must give their life rather than transgress. (Shach YD 157:10; Igros Moshe EH 4:60)

29. Certainly, if the conversation is blatantly done in a manner that evokes a personal closeness — I.e., in a language, tone, excessive comfort level which leads to personal closeness, or when talking about subjects of closeness, or which show or lead to personal closeness etc. — it is an issur d’Oraysa in the category of abizrayu d’giluy arayos. (See ibid.; Levushah Shel Torah 80:4)

Excessive Conversation

30. If a man and woman regularly converse regarding unnecessary topics such as news, politics, etc., simply because they enjoy speaking to each other (and seek out topics to talk about), it borders upon abizrayu d’giluy arayos. (Igros Moshe EH 4:60; See Levushah Shel Torah 80:4)

31. If a man needs something accomplished at work that can be done by either a man or woman, and deliberately chooses a woman to do it (or vice versa) due to the other’s gender and/or a desire to foster or maintain a personal relationship, it borders upon abizrayu d’giluy arayos. (See Igros Moshe ibid.)

The Woman’s Imperative

32. When speaking to men, women should bear in mind that they should avoid speaking in an intimate, provocative manner or tone, as that borders upon abizrayu d’giluy arayos. This also falls under the category of mesayei’a l’dvar aveirah (assisting in a sin), especially when the conversation indeed leads toward feelings of pleasure and/or other pitfalls. (See Chinuch 188)

- This is particularly relevant when a woman works in a position such as sales where the goal is to win over clients or contracts, and warm, personal conversations are customary. She must take particular care not to chas v’shalom transgress these severe prohibitions over the course of her work.

When a Pleasurable Conversation is Permitted

33. It is important to note that there are instances when men and women may converse and gain satisfaction from the conversation. This is permitted when the pleasure is not due to gender or a personal relationship, but rather to an unrelated reason.

The way to assess this is by honestly considering whether they would have the same level of pleasure if the same conversation were to be held with a member of their own gender. For instance:

- A male accountant works on finding the cause of a big error in the account of a female client (or vice versa). After a few days, he calls to inform her that it has been straightened out. Typically, even when spoken in a formal, professional manner, the accountant will have pleasure from discussing the details of the achievement, irrelevant of the fact that he is speaking to a woman.

- Someone works in an organization that assists the sick R”l with physician referrals, and receives a call that an appointment, operation, etc., concluded successfully. He/she gains satisfaction from the fact that another Yid was helped, regardless of the gender of the one with whom they’re speaking.

(Levushah Shel Torah 80:7)

The Torah Source for “Do not speak excessively with a woman”

In Parshas Beha’alosecha, we find the mitzvah of pesach sheini. Yidden who were tamei from a meis were thus unable to bring the korban pesach on the 14th of Nissan with the rest of Klal Yisrael. They came to Moshe Rabbeinu and asked, “Why should we be left out?” Moshe replied, “Let us stand and hear what Hashem will command.” Hashem then gave Moshe the mitzvah of pesach sheini, which enabled these Yidden to bring the korban pesach on the 15th of Iyar.

The sefarim point out a discrepancy between this story and that of the daughters of Tzelafchad. In Parshas Pinchas, the Torah recounts how Tzelafchad’s daughters – who had no brothers and therefore stood to lose their father’s portion in Eretz Yisrael – asked Moshe why they don’t deserve a portion in Eretz Yisrael. The pasuk states, “Moshe brought their plight to Hashem.” Why didn’t the pasuk use the words “Stand and hear” like it does by pesach sheini?

The sefarim explain that this is an instance of “leka midi d’lo remiza b’Oraysa, there is nothing that is not somehow symbolized in the Torah.” We see from Moshe the concept of “Don’t speak excessively with a woman.” By the story of pesach sheini, Moshe was speaking to men, so he told them to wait nearby, whereas when speaking with the daughters of Tzelafchad, Moshe did not want to speak with women more than absolutely necessary — and thus he immediately proceeded to talk to Hashem.

(Igra D’Kallah, Behaalosecha; Baruch She’amar, Avos 1; Pardes Yosef, Pinchas 27:5 and Behaalosecha 8:9)

Last edited by Ruchi on Fri, Sep 06 2024, 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total