Short socks for high school girl. Is this the new norm?

amother

Pearl

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 8:48 am

amother OP wrote:

Everyone likes to think they are the middle of the road.. but that is really us, not yeshivish, not modern.. but frum k'halacha. (think lakewood standard school ie. oros, aderes, shiras devorah, machon.. )
Ok so my teen daughter is telling me that all the girls wear long skirts and short socks. I grew up wearing longer socks, until the knee even if my skirt was long, or definitely longer so that when I went in and out of a car, nobody was able to see my uncovered legs.
But she's trying to convince me every day it's fine if there's a small gap.. because EVERYBODY wears short socks. And she is right, because I do see it.
so here's my question. When did this new trend start and become okay? And two how do I address this with my daughter??. Please don't come at me that I am being unrealistic. It is definitely not the norm for our circles a few years ago.

I’m 30 went to Beis Sheindel and it was definitely done by at least 30% of the school.
And we were the most yeshivish school in those days.
So it’s not new.
I did it in high school. My family did not appreciate but kept quiet because it wasn’t a battle they were willing to die on.
I don’t do it now
I don’t think it would have ended well if it was a battle they would have fought.

I don’t know your daughter and what she is battling. Only you know if this a battle you want to fight .

amother

NeonBlue

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:09 am

I wouldn't get into a fight with a teenager about tznius, especially something that is considered halachikly ok by many.

Would she be open to learning the halachos of leg covering with you? If done in a curious, non-judgmental way she might be more motivated to follow the shita that you hold. Or she might continue to do what her friends do.

When I was a teenager I didn't like to see a gap between my skirts and socks because it looked weird. At that stage of my life it was important to me to wear some kind of sock and I tried to cover my lower leg, off and on. As an adult I don't cover my lower legs or wear socks during the week. But as a teenager a lot of the people who I looked up to did so and thought it was important so I tried. I basically lived my life in maxi skirts before it was cool and often some kind of crew sock or knee sock. If it didn't look weird maybe I would have worn ankle socks with maxi skirts more.

Cheiny

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:38 am

amother OP wrote:

Well I remember when the “norm” in frum areas suddenly became wearing shorter, above the knee skirts. Like with anything else, we get to decide the hashkafa for our homes and how we raise our kids. No matter what the outside world is doing, even within our community, we stick to our standards and don’t follow trends that compromise our standards or beliefs.

kermit

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:34 am

My rule is if NO ONE else can tell I'm wearing short socks in the skirt I'm wearing, I will. otherwise I need longer.

I think I'd apply the same to my daughter in future. I'd expect her to use seichel and tell her that if at any point I see that she is wearing short socks with her skirt, we will need to switch to knee socks -- that this is her tznius and isn't a game but let's give it a try and see if wearing short socks can truly be tznius for her. does that make sense?

PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 10:45 am

amother OP wrote:

Strange. I think knee socks are fine but I thought a lot of people are makpid on tights.

↑ Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 11:34 am

I think if there was more tolerance for leggings under skirts, we might not have this issue and girls would wear short socks over leggings.
Now they're wearing over bare legs....

I agree it's an pair offshoot of the sportswear trend. Alo crew socks are for sure longer than the quarter socks but now I bemoan the days where me giving in to Nike crew socks was a hard task!

↑ PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:14 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I'm not a fan of leggings (and there is often a gap, for those who are makpid). Was it ever leggings vs. knee highs or tights only?

amother

Cappuccino

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 6:52 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

This is definitely not new in monsey. For years, the yeshivish-lite world (all the standard BY highschools) had regular good girls who would wear short socks and long skirts. It wasnt even controversial.

What was more of a "nisayon" was wearing short socks and short skirts. Interestingly, our Rosh Yeshiva gave a shiur to the nshei women a few years ago and answered questions at the end...the topic of teen girls wanting to wear short socks and short skirts came up and he answered very clearly that if her friends are wearing it and she wants to, its not something to be firm about as he doesnt even hold its halacha that below the knee needs to be covered in the first place, and that monsey is too large and diverse to have a minhag hamakom.
His wife and daughters cover their lower legs, but he stressed it wasnt halacha. I found that very eye opening.

Interesting you mention about minhag hamakom re Monsey- I grew up with my mom having us always cover our legs (at least with stockings) in large part, according to her, because of minhag hamakom, which was at least partly minhag haneighborhood- most people were a bit more yeshivish than us. I went away for college and she was like "okay, what you do in your own time is fine, but when you come back home you have to cover your legs or it'll look off."

These days, none of my sisters cover their legs and neither do I, and while part of the reason why my mother doesn't say anything is that, you know, we're adults, I think part of it is that, ironically, as our neighborhood has gone more chassidish, my mother threw in the towel and was like "well if minhag hamakom means wearing a double covering and seamed stockings then maybe that's not a thing." And in general, I feel like you walk into Evergreen and see such a broad variety of people dressed in such a broad variety of ways- as your rav noted- that nobody looks off in any particular way.

amother

Mintgreen ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 6:59 pm

simcha12plus wrote:

this is the latest nisayon of tznius.

I am noticing it more and more in the last few weeks. women who would NEVER have done this two summers ago are out with very long skirts and NO leg wear. the girls are wearing long skirts and little socks without stockings under.
Yes, it is creeping into the middle of the road, and also to the right of middle.
It is NOT tznius.
Don’t fool yourself.
it is IMPOSSIBLE to walk in a long skirt and not see the top of the short socks.
in and out of the car, up and down curbs and sidewalks. you are seeing more and more skin of people’s legs, ESPECIALLY in circles where women would never go out in short skirts without hosiery. when they are wearing long skirts, they are not as careful.

According to whom is it not tznius? The one inch of skin that may be seen above a short sock is bad to be seen - why exactly? Will this cause the men who should not be looking that closely - to do what exactly?

And anyway, unless the skirt is very straight, you dont see SKIN going up and down curbs and sidewalks. Maybe up steep bus steps. Look away if it bothers you so much.

amother

↑ Mintgreen ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 7:02 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

I think what changed is that midi skirts are in as opposed to long. Long skirts and short socks was always a thing, but the midi skirt (like inch above ankle) is trending for past few years and has become more acceptable. I’m struggling with this with my past bas mitzvah daughter. I never show my leg…not sure what to do

A midi skirt is a lot shorter than one inch above the ankle.

amother

↑ Mintgreen

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 7:05 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Op, I’m in Lakewood too and fighting with my high school girls all summer. I just stopped. It’s a losing battle and it’s all over, not sure how it became ok. I see it all over.
No answer. Just validating.
And listening….
No, it’s not the worst thing but def a slippery slope.

Believe it or not, not everything is a slippery slope.

amother

Hunter

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 7:49 pm

amother Mintgreen wrote:

Believe it or not, not everything is a slippery slope.

This. Everyone is blowing this out of proportion.

I'm yeshivish and I've always worn short socks with long skirts. Maybe sometimes people see a tiny gap of skin, maybe not, but overall I think I dress very simple, refined and neat and give a tznius'dik impression

amother

↑ Thistle

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 9:38 pm

kermit wrote:

No because teens don't like their parents getting up in their business.

Since we have to get in their business very often, socks are not the place to start arguing. Save your important battles for something worthwhile.