Short socks for high school girl. Is this the new norm?

amother

Tealblue ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 10:48 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

I’ve been wearing short socks with a long skirt ever since high school (16 years ago) and I see plenty of bais yaakov girls doing the same (monsey)

Same, grew up in yeshivish part of Brooklyn.
Now Lakewood.
Not ok to school. I don't like gaps when standing still, ok with when walking.

amother

Cyan

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 10:49 pm

Right now its actually a style of sock in the wider world that is "in", if its the same indeed, I guess they figure they can get away with pushing the limits a little because the skirts are long.

FYI this yeshivish/not yeshivish thing is probably because the wider community sees all yeshivish as one and the same but within that group, there is a clear division of actually yeshivish and the rest who are not actually yeshivish if you delve into it for a minute.

amother

↑ Tealblue ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 10:51 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am not talking about wearing short socks to school, so the uniform skirt length is not in this equation. I am talking about all summer!!!! and days off. I saw many girls this summer in my job capacity and I stick to what I noticed. And I only noticed, BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO SEE how high the sock went!! and answering the comment about yeshivish.
Please allow me to rephrase. I am in the yeshivish world. I am not yeshivish. (Hungarian, balabatish if you will.) You must not be part of that world if you don't get that nuance. That's OK but there IS a difference. Because no, yeshivish girls are not the ones dressing with short socks ( think schools like meon, bais yaakov, bais shaindel)

Ok so above schools are super yeshivish.
Oros/ shiras devorah are still part of middle yeshivish, skirting jpf.
Long skirt/short socks not new.

amother

Ballota

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 10:58 pm

I think what changed is that midi skirts are in as opposed to long. Long skirts and short socks was always a thing, but the midi skirt (like inch above ankle) is trending for past few years and has become more acceptable. I’m struggling with this with my past bas mitzvah daughter. I never show my leg…not sure what to do

↑ simcha12plus

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 10:59 pm

amother Stonewash wrote:

Sorry but it’s not the latest nisayon. Maybe there was a decade or two when this wasn’t a nisayon. But this was common in decades past.

you are correct. Wearing leg wear has ALWAYS been a nisayon. I think it is the newest tznius nisayon in the communities in which it was not such a nisayon before. it is a new nisayon in groups where in the past no one would have considered going out without legwear and now they do.

amother

Springgreen

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:02 pm

amother OP wrote:

Everyone likes to think they are the middle of the road.. but that is really us, not yeshivish, not modern.. but frum k'halacha. (think lakewood standard school ie. oros, aderes, shiras devorah, machon.. )
Ok so my teen daughter is telling me that all the girls wear long skirts and short socks. I grew up wearing longer socks, until the knee even if my skirt was long, or definitely longer so that when I went in and out of a car, nobody was able to see my uncovered legs.
But she's trying to convince me every day it's fine if there's a small gap.. because EVERYBODY wears short socks. And she is right, because I do see it.
so here's my question. When did this new trend start and become okay? And two how do I address this with my daughter??. Please don't come at me that I am being unrealistic. It is definitely not the norm for our circles a few years ago.

This is definitely not new in monsey. For years, the yeshivish-lite world (all the standard BY highschools) had regular good girls who would wear short socks and long skirts. It wasnt even controversial.

What was more of a "nisayon" was wearing short socks and short skirts. Interestingly, our Rosh Yeshiva gave a shiur to the nshei women a few years ago and answered questions at the end...the topic of teen girls wanting to wear short socks and short skirts came up and he answered very clearly that if her friends are wearing it and she wants to, its not something to be firm about as he doesnt even hold its halacha that below the knee needs to be covered in the first place, and that monsey is too large and diverse to have a minhag hamakom.
His wife and daughters cover their lower legs, but he stressed it wasnt halacha. I found that very eye opening.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:21 pm

It's really interesting how ppl are posting it's not new. I'm in lakewood over 20 years. I've never seen it the first 17 years... Maybe Monsey and Flatbush, it was more accepted. Definitely not here.
From some Bais Kaila, Chedvas, BBY girls yes.. (and I'm not judging anybody). but not more middle of the road "yeshivish" branded schools.
And I do remember slouch socks (am I giving away my age?!l) But my friends who wore them wore skirts to the floor!!!

amother

Oldlace

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:28 pm

I'm thinking this must be happening because sneakers became something mainstream to wear a short while ago (wasn't a few years ago), so most of us were wearing short socks on top of our stockings to make it look cuter. And then maybe it became no stockings under the socks? Just to pinpoint the origin of the issue.
I also notice slits now. So it looks like the 90s are back in style and also with the tzinus issues of the times- I remember high school teachers yelling about these issues back then as well. I think they were called "bobby socks" or something.
We stopped educating our girls with all this because there was no need, nobody did it. Maybe they have to relearn the rules of slits and short socks again. Probably nobody was discussing it.

↑ tigerwife

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:32 pm

amother Oldlace wrote:

Ha, you’re right on target down to the “bobby socks”. I wouldnt wear a slit since it was so ingrained in me that it is provocative (and side point but I do think that it isn’t tznius, not because I was brainwashed) but so many people 5+ years younger than me who pretty much dress similarly would wear a slit.

amother

Hawthorn

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:37 pm

I understand the confusion- short socks/ long skirts were not seen around Lakewood 20 years ago. Many people who live in and around Lakewood now weren't seen around Lakewood 20 years ago either. The girls may be from families from Brooklyn or Monsey or other places and are dressing according to their family's minhag and the current style- sport socks and sneakers.

I'm not from Lakewood per se, but married into an "old tyme Lakewood" family and from my outsider perspective, it's a very different community than 20 years ago. The further you go from "old tyme lakewood" the more variety you see in approaches.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:40 pm

I want to address "stonewash" and don't know how to tag her message.
I have no problem saying I'm yeshivish but that would be a lie.
I wear denim skirts, I have a smartphone with internet, I wear a band fall, and would go bike riding in a park..
My yeshivish friends can't say the same to any of of this.
And I even allow my daughter to wear those short socks!!! Just all I'm saying is no gap at all. So, either the socks have to go up a little more or the skirt reach lower on the leg... this was standard in my circles a few years ago.

amother

↑ Stonewash ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

Right, the Lakewood girls didn’t wear slouch/bobby socks with short skirts. Because Lakewood was yeshivish back then. Now it’s not so much. Point is, knee socks are a yeshivish thing.

amother

Oleander

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:51 pm

I wear denim skirts, I have a smartphone with internet, I wear a band fall, and would go bike riding in a park...and proudly call myself yeshivish. Just sayin:) went to one of the schools you listed as "jpf" and from your description grew up far less to the "right" of yeshivish then you describe. I hate using labels but if someone from the wider orthodox world would try to categorize me I would fall into the yeshivish one. And I'm proud of it!

I will say that I really do get what you’re saying OP in terms of yeshivish, but these are really nuances that will only be understood by someone else who's living in the same yeshivish community type as you and me Smile

amother

↑ OP

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:09 am

Ok so someone gets what I'm saying! Horray!!
If some ppl are stuck on the term I used to describe myself, I take it back.
According to some, I AM yeshivish, I always cover my legs, and I try to instill those values in my children. Now, getting back to the subject at hand, I just wanted to stress that she is not doing it to rebel, she is seeing it everywhere! So, again my question remains: what changed and what can I do?
(And just to put it out there, these are girls that go to mainstream camps that do not allow any skin to be visible on the leg)

amother

Purple

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:14 am

amother Dahlia wrote:

When I was in high school skirts were midi length so we had to wear knee socks or tights. Now that they made them ankle length girls are wearing shorter socks because they can "get away" with it. I don't think all the girls are wearing it but the ones that like to push limits are.

This. I’m a high school English teacher in Lakewood. While there are a number of girls wearing shorter socks (mid calf- not short, short), many are still wearing knee socks. I think they honestly don’t realize that even though the skirts are long, when they sit and cross their legs etc. we can see. I have motioned to girls, many times, to cover up.

That being said- I see far more short socks-legging-bootie combo around (I think they are trying pass it off as tights)

amother

Emerald

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:37 am

I agree with op. I am out of town yeshivish.. possibly leaning a bit more right.
My daughter always wore knee socks (though I grew up wearing only tights). This summer she insisted on Nike crew socks. We’ve seen a number of high school girls in them. We’re really not happy about it but are picking out battles carefully. My husband and I told her that with a long skirt that’s covering we’ll allow it.

Well she just came home from camp wearing a skirt that’s not quite long enough (I think getting small in her) for crew socks, but she’s insisting on wearing them with that skirt… and slides… mind you.

Definitely not what we are happy with… and we see it as a newer trend and back in style.

Once again… we need to choose our battles wisely!!

Op and all others dealing with this… let’s daven for the wisdom to handle this and all other minor and major “nisyonos” that come our childrens way.