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-> Finances
ChalieB
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 Wed, Aug 21 2024, 4:38 am
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We don't have a mortgage because we can't afford a down payment, and I'm not sure we ever will.
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Success10
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 5:38 am
But every other thread is about Lulumelon, Bugaboo and The Bahamas. 
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 5:40 am
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We have a 3k mortgage because we jumped to buy when rates and prices were both low. We’re racking up credit card debt. We shuffle cards every year so we can at least put some of it on a 0% interest card.
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amother
Apple
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 5:43 am
| amother Poppy wrote: | | We rent. We still aren't surviving financially, but better than if we were paying a mortgage. |
Rent around Monsey where I live for a 3 bedroom home is around 3,000 or 4,000. So it’s the same problem with rents
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 6:30 am
| amother Yellow wrote: | Or adjust to the reality that our current lifestyle is not sustainable for the average family and reset our setup.
We have been heading down this direction for some time now, but we swept it under the rug. The current inflation has accelerated the process now and the reality is now staring in our faces. |
What kind of setup reset did you have in mind?
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:02 am
If your dh works til 8 why are you not making enough? Can he get a better paying job?
I also am not cut out for both full time work and parenting. My dh saw this and took on extra jobs or you can have a side job after kids go to sleep.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:30 am
| amother OP wrote: | I'm talking about middle class.
They don't qualify for government help and are not technically struggling so don't get assistance from organizations.
But thinking about month to month; how is it done?
I am sure many move out of town, but there are plenty middle class in more populated towns. I'm thinking Baltimore, Monsey, Chicago. |
they barely survive
by a thread
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:30 am
Since you asked - start of rant:
This high standard of living has got to go. Lower the scale of all simchas. Stop with the extravagant gift giving during engagement. Stop the crazy furnishing expenses for chosson kallah. Dressing tznius doesn't mean expensive or brand name clothing. Schools should stop with the costly extra curricular and excess activities. Same goes for camp. Camp should be optional, not something everyone does. Figure out how to celebrate YT without it costing thousands of dollars. Etc.
Then - prepare out kids appropriately for a financial future. The financial tools we currently give them is as if it's still then 1970s. No, you can't anymore easily pick up the lacking skills and jump right into well paying jobs whenever you so decide to. Nor are we living in an era where 2 weeks of works pays your life expenses, so we lost the bandwidth where people have some space to build themselves up. Nor is it feasible for people to go into marriage, without any financial education, and just figure it out later. By the time they figure it out, their expenses are debilitating and they are paying their life backwards instead of forward.
I can go on and on about how what we define now as 'basics' is in reality a wealthy lifestyle anywhere else in the world. You can't sustain a lifestyle where you expect the average family to be among society's top earners, while at the same time limiting their tools to be able to target high paying jobs.
(Please spare me the personal anecdotes how our current setup makes sense just because you know a few people who have made it despite the obstacles. For every one person who made it, I can bring at least 20 who didn't. Society should be geared for the average person to make it, and not just for a small minority.)
End of rant.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:32 am
| amother Brown wrote: | | Renting and not surviving. No savings to even think of buying a house and this is with older kids. I keep Wondering how everyone else manages. |
my reality too
rent jumped 600 per month a year ago and another 100 this year
INSANE
Yellow thanks for being a voice of reason
easier said than done alot of it - but still so valid
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:35 am
| amother Yellow wrote: | Since you asked - start of rant:
This high standard of living got to go. Lower the scale of all simchas. Stop with the extravagant gift giving during engagement. Stop the crazy furnishing expenses for chosson kallah. Dressing tznius doesn't mean expensive or brand name clothing. Schools should stop with the costly extra curricular and excess activities. Same goes for camp. Camp should be optional, not something everyone does. Figure out how to celebrate YT without it costing thousands of dollars. Etc.
Then - prepare out kids appropriately for a financial future. The financial tools we currently give them is as if it's still then 1970s. No, you can't anymore easily pick up the lacking skills and jump right into well paying jobs whenever you so decide to. Nor are we living in an era where 2 weeks of works pays your life expenses, so we lost the bandwidth where people have some space to build themselves up. Nor is it feasible for people to go into marriage, without any financial education, and just figure it out later. By the time they figure it out, their expenses are debilitating and they are paying their life backwards instead of forward.
I can go on and on about how what we define now as 'basics' is in reality a wealthy lifestyle anywhere else in the world. You can't sustain a lifestyle where you expect the average family to be among so society's top earners, while at the same time limiting their tools to target high paying jobs.
(Please spare me the personal anecdotes how our current setup makes sense just because you know a few people who have made it despite the obstacles. For every one person who made it, I can bring at least 20 who didn't. Society should be geared for the average person to make it, and not just for a small minority.)
End of rant. |
Yeah, none of this applys to us and we’re still not making it. My husband has a masters degree plus a bunch of professional certifications.
Our wedding wasn’t fancy, and we’re using hand me down furniture still a decade later.
If my kids didn’t go to camp I would need to take the time off to entertain them.
Our house isn’t fancy or expensive.
Fact is, middle class income of 150k turns into 6k take home salary monthly after taxes and insurance which covers housing, daycare, tuition and nothing else
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:46 am
| amother Yellow wrote: | Since you asked - start of rant:
This high standard of living has got to go. Lower the scale of all simchas. Stop with the extravagant gift giving during engagement. Stop the crazy furnishing expenses for chosson kallah. Dressing tznius doesn't mean expensive or brand name clothing. Schools should stop with the costly extra curricular and excess activities. Same goes for camp. Camp should be optional, not something everyone does. Figure out how to celebrate YT without it costing thousands of dollars. Etc.
Then - prepare out kids appropriately for a financial future. The financial tools we currently give them is as if it's still then 1970s. No, you can't anymore easily pick up the lacking skills and jump right into well paying jobs whenever you so decide to. Nor are we living in an era where 2 weeks of works pays your life expenses, so we lost the bandwidth where people have some space to build themselves up. Nor is it feasible for people to go into marriage, without any financial education, and just figure it out later. By the time they figure it out, their expenses are debilitating and they are paying their life backwards instead of forward.
I can go on and on about how what we define now as 'basics' is in reality a wealthy lifestyle anywhere else in the world. You can't sustain a lifestyle where you expect the average family to be among society's top earners, while at the same time limiting their tools to be able to target high paying jobs.
(Please spare me the personal anecdotes how our current setup makes sense just because you know a few people who have made it despite the obstacles. For every one person who made it, I can bring at least 20 who didn't. Society should be geared for the average person to make it, and not just for a small minority.)
End of rant. |
None of this addresses how to raise a frum family on less than 200k in the US without struggling.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:47 am
| amother Sunflower wrote: |
Fact is, middle class income of 150k turns into 6k take home salary monthly after taxes and insurance which covers housing, daycare, tuition and nothing else |
Fact is, that middle class income of 150k elsewhere in society generally has the means to make it. So this is mostly limited to our community.
So why is that our community can't? Part of that answer is housing. Why are we continuously crowding in communities to the degree that the housing costs are ridiculously high? Why don't we incorporate the mindset to gradually move outwards to keep costs at bay?
Tuition is something that our communities need to figure out. Private schools is a luxury elsewhere. We obviously need them. But to expect the average family to pay the exorbitant expenses is unrealistic. We need to figure out how to keep costs at bay.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:50 am
| amother Steelblue wrote: | | None of this addresses how to raise a frum family on less than 200k in the US without struggling. |
I didn't provide solutions but highlighted many of the problems. I wasn't going to start itemizing solutions because then the conversation will go off on a tangent with posters nitpicking each and every one.
But the overview stands in direct correlation to the $200k frum lifestyle.
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amother
Cognac
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:50 am
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OP I’ve been asking this question for a while. The math does not add up. We’re living in a family apartment and doing everything we can to brace ourselves for the future
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amother
Plum
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:52 am
| amother DarkGreen wrote: | | 120 combined is pretty low if you’re in NYC metro. You each can make that amount (working full time) | how?
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 7:55 am
| amother Sunflower wrote: | Yeah, none of this applys to us and we’re still not making it. My husband has a masters degree plus a bunch of professional certifications.
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Side note about degrees: This isn't directed to you because I don't know what degrees you have. But generally, when you limit the number of accessible degrees to a group of people in a secluded community, those fields become overpopulated. That in turn then lowers the value of those degrees.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:00 am
| amother Yellow wrote: | Fact is, that middle class income of 150k elsewhere in society generally has the means to make it. So this is mostly limited to our community.
So why is that our community can't? Part of that answer is housing. Why are we continuously crowding in communities to the degree that the housing costs are ridiculously high? Why don't we incorporate the mindset to gradually move outwards to keep costs at bay?
Tuition is something that our communities need to figure out. Private schools is a luxury elsewhere. We obviously need them. But to expect the average family to pay the exorbitant expenses is unrealistic. We need to figure out how to keep costs at bay. |
Hard truth is that frum life without the luxuries is in itself very expensive. Kosher food including pesach matza etc. Tuition. More kids. People have been moving out but there are additional expenses to oot living that oftentimes offset part or all of the savings. Many are struggling way before simchas & weddings.
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monseymom25
↓
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:03 am
| amother Yellow wrote: | Since you asked - start of rant:
This high standard of living has got to go. Lower the scale of all simchas. Stop with the extravagant gift giving during engagement. Stop the crazy furnishing expenses for chosson kallah. Dressing tznius doesn't mean expensive or brand name clothing. Schools should stop with the costly extra curricular and excess activities. Same goes for camp. Camp should be optional, not something everyone does. Figure out how to celebrate YT without it costing thousands of dollars. Etc.
Then - prepare out kids appropriately for a financial future. The financial tools we currently give them is as if it's still then 1970s. No, you can't anymore easily pick up the lacking skills and jump right into well paying jobs whenever you so decide to. Nor are we living in an era where 2 weeks of works pays your life expenses, so we lost the bandwidth where people have some space to build themselves up. Nor is it feasible for people to go into marriage, without any financial education, and just figure it out later. By the time they figure it out, their expenses are debilitating and they are paying their life backwards instead of forward.
I can go on and on about how what we define now as 'basics' is in reality a wealthy lifestyle anywhere else in the world. You can't sustain a lifestyle where you expect the average family to be among society's top earners, while at the same time limiting their tools to be able to target high paying jobs.
(Please spare me the personal anecdotes how our current setup makes sense just because you know a few people who have made it despite the obstacles. For every one person who made it, I can bring at least 20 who didn't. Society should be geared for the average person to make it, and not just for a small minority.)
End of rant. |
That was so well said. The only other piece of the puzzle is tuition. Private school is a luxury and people in our communities are sending many children while not making salaries that will allow them to do that.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 21 2024, 8:05 am
| amother Yellow wrote: | I didn't provide solutions but highlighted many of the problems. I wasn't going to start itemizing solutions because then the conversation will go off on a tangent with posters nitpicking each and every one.
But the overview stands in direct correlation to the $200k frum lifestyle. |
Ok. I'm just saying, tuition and childcare for let's say 5-6 kids, plus health insurance, plus food, plus large vehicles, plus basic wardrobe, plus housing- it adds up extremely quickly. WITHOUT extras like fancy meat, takeout, high end simchas, designer clothing and jewelry, travel, home decorating etc etc. I just don't see how you're addressing any of that.
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