Circle magazine feature on Shabatei Tzvi

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Hobbies, Crafts, and Collections -> Reading Room

1 2 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:16 am

I found the article fascinating, but I have long had a fascination with the subject of Shabatei Tzvi. Ever since I read Avner Gold's The Imposter in my teens, I have tried to read whatever I could on the subject.

The one thing I find extremely interesting to contemplate is the fact that there were many accounts of children falling into a trance and "prophesying" that Shabbetai Tzvi was Moshiach.

I can't help but wonder if this were to happen today, if you were not a believer, or were on the fence, and you heard about children and adults having these visions, would that not sway you to become a believer? It definitely swayed many people of his time.

We always say that we look to our rabbonim for guidance. But reportedly, 90% of the rabbonim of the time believed in him. And yet, they were all fooled.

In retrospect, we know that it should have been a giveaway that he was a fraud when he violated many halachos in the Torah. He ate forbidden foods and decreed that Tisha B'Av should be celebrated with feasting.

And yet, we have stories in our history of great people who violated the Torah due to the times, and they are not discredited. For example, Esther and Mordechai decreed that people fast instead of celebrating Pesach. The rationale was that better to fast one Pesach than to not have any Jews left to celebrate Pesach.

Many years later, in Lithuania, there was a deadly epidemic raging. When Yom Kippur night arrived Rav Yisroel Salanter went from shul to shul eating in front of everyone, in order to drive home to them that it's forbidden to fast.

There are many more examples of gedolim who have boldly paskened to break the halacha because of sha'as hadechak.

The Shabbatei Tzvi debacle was one of the most confusing, demoralizing chapters in our history.

amother

Olive ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 6:23 am

I also found the article fascinating!

Following. Especially about the trance bit...

PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 9:13 am

b.chadash wrote:

And yet, we have stories in our history of great people who violated the Torah due to the times, and they are not discredited. For example, Esther and Mordechai decreed that people fast instead of celebrating Pesach. The rationale was that better to fast one Pesach than to not have any Jews left to celebrate Pesach.

Many years later, in Lithuania, there was a deadly epidemic raging. When Yom Kippur night arrived Rav Yisroel Salanter went from shul to shul eating in front of everyone, in order to drive home to them that it's forbidden to fast.

There are many more examples of gedolim who have boldly paskened to break the halacha because of sha'as hadechak.

The Shabbatei Tzvi debacle was one of the most confusing, demoralizing chapters in our history.

True, in the beginning Mordechai was perceived by many as an outlier when so many others mattirred Achashveirosh's feast. By the time he and Esther called the fast, the perception had changed.
And while some considered the mussar approach controversial, Rav Yisroel was a known entity.
So I'm not sure how analogous to Shabtai Tzvi they, and possibly other examples, were.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 1:39 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

My point is that he was a tremendous Talmid chacham, an illuy, a kabbalist- someone who had received semicha from his great rebbe at age 20. I would say that he was a far more "known entity" than R Yisroel Salanter in his day.

He had the support of most of the Jewish world, including some world class rabbanim. (I have read that the historical accounts scrubbed the names of the gedolim who supported him so as not to tarnish their reputations. But basically everyone believed in him, not just the naive, gullible masses. )

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:00 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I didn't know this.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:28 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I didn't know this.

Did you read The Impostor?
If not, I highly recommend it. There are other books who deal with this story, but none (in my opinion) as compellingly written as The Impostor.

amother

↑ Olive ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:43 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Did you read The Impostor?
If not, I highly recommend it. There are other books who deal with this story, but none (in my opinion) as compellingly written as The Impostor.

Is it by Avner Gold?

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:45 pm

amother Olive wrote:

Is it by Avner Gold?

Yes.

amother

↑ Olive

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:50 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Yes.

Thanks! I saw that book around when I was a kid but never read it, and after I read the article in the circle I wanted to find a book about it.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 2:54 pm

amother Olive wrote:

Thanks! I saw that book around when I was a kid but never read it, and after I read the article in the circle I wanted to find a book about it.

It's part of the Ruach Ami series- this is the 5th in the series. But you can also read it as a standalone book.
All of those books are rich in historical detail, very well researched and engagingly written.
(He recently republished all of the books, and rewrote parts of it, adding a lot of material. I personally prefer the original series, by far. )

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:09 pm

As an aside, the article in the Circle said that today there is no remnant left of this movement, but that isn't entirely accurate.

There are still Sabbateans who are loyal to the ideology of Shabbatei Tzvi and believe that he will still come back to redeem them. They even have a website you can read. They are the descendants of the group of families who converted to Islam along with Tzvi, and kept a Judaism privately. They have some pretty wild beliefs.
Some time after he died, a new movement arose, headed by someone named Jacob Frank who said that he was the successor of Shabbatai Tzvi. His movement was called the Frankists. Rabbi Wein gave a lecture series on this many years ago that I found fascinating. There may have been more breakaways, but I don't recall exactly.

strawberry cola

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:36 pm

Not all of the Rabbanim believed him. Harav Yaakov Sasportas ztl rose strongly against him, as did the Rabbanei Yerushalayim. But yes, it was a big nisayon for many people in the Jewish nation, who hoped that the galus was over.

↑ PinkFridge

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:43 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Did you read The Impostor?
If not, I highly recommend it. There are other books who deal with this story, but none (in my opinion) as compellingly written as The Impostor.

Years ago. I knew about Shabtai Tzvi an the devastation he left. I didn't know he had a legitimate background.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 3:56 pm

strawberry cola wrote:

True, I have read that about 10% of rabbonim opposed him.
R Yaakov Sasportas is one rav who is largely unknown today, aside from being one of the few who saw through the charlatan and tried to warn the people. There were other supporting Rabbonim who are much more well known, but it isn't known that they supported him because historians have tried to protect their legacy.

I cannot help but think how this would have played out in our day and age, if someone like Shabbatai Tzvi came on the scene. Yes, we are all much more wary and skeptical after having been burned so many times. But, still. I could see it happening all over again, given the same circumstances.

ectomorph

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:08 pm

I don't think the circle article was correct. He was never supported by 90% of leaders.

Also, it omitted that he converted to Islam at the end of his life. It just wasn't very well researched. There were other inaccuracies as well.

amother

Maple

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:27 pm

Rabbi YY Jacobson has a riveting multi part podcast on this topic.

amother

Catmint

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:28 pm

IMO the most comprehensive and completely honest historical perspective is given by Harav Dovid Katz from Baltimore. He is a Talmid Chochom and Historical expert. You can find his multi part series on you tube.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:31 pm

ectomorph wrote:

The article didn't say the 90% statistic. I was saying it based on other reading I have done. What proof do you have that it wasn't 90%?
Plus, the article absolutely did mention that he converted, and that about 200 families converted along with him.
I personally thought it was very well researched.
Wondering what inaccuracies you found?

Last edited by b.chadash on Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:32 pm

amother Maple wrote:

Rabbi YY Jacobson has a riveting multi part podcast on this topic.

Where?

amother

Coffee

Sun, Aug 11 2024, 4:41 pm

ectomorph wrote:

Not sure what article you read, but the Circle totally did mention his conversion, and how that mostly ended the whole thing, though not everyone initially believed the news of his conversion and some die hards followed him, converting as well. All that was in the article. I found it to be pretty well done, if maybe glossing over a few things, which is understandable considering it's meant for kids.

Page 1 of 2

1 2 Next