Bais yaakov vs non BY approach to teaching Tznius

amother

OP ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 3:44 am

My experience working with teen girls in camps and schools is that most of the girls who come from Bais yaakov can’t wait to break free from their rigid school uniform and wear whatever they want. They follow tznius guidelines generally but when left to decide what to wear their outfits are tighter or just overall pushing the envelope. The girls from non Bais yaakov seem more comfortable with their body image and tznius guidelines overall and end up dressing more tzanua when not told what they have to wear. It seems BY schools use a lot of words like “bnos melachim, dignity, refinement, royalty” as opposed to non Bais yaakov schools that teach Halacha vs minhag hamakom and to focus on internally as opposed to externals.
I am worried about this because my daughters’ school is switching to a more Bais yaakov feel. They’re adding a sweatshirt with emblem, switching to a button down shirt and knee socks from a more relaxed polo shirt uniform. I loved that there was space for girls to choose how they feel comfortable dressing as opposed to being told this is a “dignified” look. I found that generally they chose to be more tzanua than their BY peers because of the room for choice. What are your thoughts? I’d love to hear your background with your answer

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 5:38 am

amother DarkCyan wrote:

Hmm that's interesting.
I went to BY and over a decade later we are still tznius, proud, and growing....
Meanwhile my friends that went to MO school (mind you I only have a few- a couple relatives and some family friends) are all wearing pants etc...

That was my experience, but Im way older than you. The BY girls really absorbed the message of respectful dress. People treat you more respectful because of it

My friends who went to MO schools (for want of a better term, to be specific, Central) went from pants to tight pants, short sleeves to lower revealing necklines and the shirts with slits or missing material on their shoulders. They claim that the hot weather justifies the less cloth, its not meant to be revealing and anyway the men should keep their eyes to themselves and look up at the face, not the body....

Incidentally, a few gained weight and started wearing looser clothing.

Elfrida ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 5:41 am

It's something I noticed as well. Generally, Beis Yaakov tends to teach tznius from the outside in. Rules about exactly how you can dress, and then being told that dressing this way makes you feel this way. They often emphasise what a difficult mitzvah it is, and how much schar the girls will get. Once the girls are not controlled, they stick to the general rules, but often push them to the extreme of what can be accommodated.

The more Torani schools teach the halacha, and often the difference between halacha and chumra, together with the hashkafa behind it. It's often approached in a similar fashion to any other mitzvah. No mention of it being hard, just as Shabbos or kashrut isn't described as hard. It's the halacha. The girls learn to explore what they can wear and what works within halachic boundaries.

I remember talking to a Beis Yaakov teacher who was very upset about how the Torani girls, were normally much more tzanuah than her own students, but without revamping the whole system she couldnt see a way to change it.

imaima

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 6:17 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

This can’t be compared. It’s apples and oranges. They must have learnt different definitions of tzniyus and are in different societies.

amother

Cadetblue

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 6:58 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

My friends who went to Central dress b’tznius (k’halacha).

amother

Aster

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:34 am

It doesn't really seem logical to lump together ALL BY style schools. Schools are comprised of individuals, and they are the ones giving over the message. I am definitely conscious of putting my kids in settings where the message is aligned with our hashkafa at home, even if the exact details are not. Anecdotally, I went to a mainstream Brooklyn BY where they weren't rule-heavy about anything, and tznius was approached the same way. But that was a couple decades ago, it's possible the same school has changed. Like I said, the individuals are the deciding factor.

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:34 am

From my many years in the BY world I don’t find a single word of this true. I can count on my fingers the amount of kids I’ve seen have this attitude. I can show you whole non BY schools that keep nothing of what they learned and wear tank tops and shorts and say there is nothing wrong with it.

amother

Waterlily

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 9:36 am

What is concerning about the BY method is when they teach that certain things are Halacha and then the girls find out they’re not. Did they not hear of “don’t add to Torah?” It’s very upsetting and really leads to a disregard of actual Halacha.

I feel that as long as actual Halacha is being presented, if the girls veer from it it’s no one’s fault, just their decision and that’s ok.

amother

Jasmine

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:19 am

otstud wrote:

I find that the BY girls who go tighter/shorter with “edgy” accessories/nail polish/makeup are usually going with what’s acceptable within their family. In HS, they dressed one way, following school rules, but after that they reverted to the way they saw their mother/sisters dressed.

or classmates. The mom doesn't always agree!

mha3484 ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:23 am

I dont see this at all. I am always so surprised when I go grocery shopping late at night to see the HS girls still in the uniform vs changing when they get home. Id be running to change my clothes after school but they all seem to like it.

Even post high school my friends girls and the neighbors who come home from sem dress just like they did when they were in HS. I think our local bais yaakov high school uses a lot of materials from feige zelcer to teach tznius and the girls get a lot out of it.

Frumomsi

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:25 am

Which camp and schools do you work in? Most places are pretty homogenous so if you’re seeing girls from both BY and non-BY backgrounds, that might be the reason you are seeing the difference.

As a community we are quick to draw conclusions without giving thought to where the “data” is coming from.

Chayalle ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:29 am

I'm wondering why your daughter's school is changing, what triggers this.
In general, I find that in my daughter's BY school, new rules usually come from infractions. They don't want to be the tznius police, so when girls are pushing certain limits, a rule is often created around that. (I'm not saying I like this approach, but it is what it is.)
I'm wondering if your DD's school is shifting because they are actually not happy with the results of their current way of teaching about tznius.

b.chadash ↓

Fri, Aug 09 2024, 11:33 am

amother OP wrote:

I dont know which crowd you have been exposed to that you are comparing BY girls to. Are they MO? Chassidish?

I have worked with BY girls and don't see this the same way. I would say that the biggest influence of tznius standards on the girl is not the school but the mother. Even if the girl dressed tzanua in BY, if the mother in a style not consistent with BY values, in most cases, the girl will end up dressing like her mother.