What type of chinuch are you giving?

Amelia Bedelia

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:45 am

amother OP wrote:

What is very confusing to kids though, is like what Satmer school does. They do not allow the girls to wear white tights to school and daycamp, they told the girls that it's not tzenuis. But they have a rule that girls must wear white tights on shabbos. So is it tzenuis or not??? The girls realize & question. That's confusing.

You're right. Sometimes teachers say stupid things- like all humans. But I wouldn't generalize that the entire school believes that way.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:45 am

amother OP wrote:

But do you understand what we're trying to point out? That the school dress code is for school. At home we dress tzenuis, but not necessarily in the school dress code.

People are trying to point out that the school doesn’t serve pork and neither do you. Some rules are not just school rules.
It wasn’t clear whether it was your shita or minhag hamakom in your community.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:47 am

amother Whitewash wrote:

And im saying I dont think this dicotomy is ok. Having a rule in school that is different than what you say for that same rule, in your family.

Let's take the white sneakers rule. School has a rule that older grades may not wear white sneakers to school. It's just not school shoes. But everyone wears white sneakers throughout the summer, when there's no school.
So is this wrong chinuch as well?

amother

↑ Whitewash ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:47 am

amother OP wrote:

Why is it not okay?? School rules are for School. Chinuch is from the home.
Of course, the basic hashkafa has to align, but uniform/socks/mode of dress is not a Chinuch/hashkafa issue. It's appropriate school dress code vs dress code when not in school.

And I disagree. I send to places where my kids wear the same in and out of school. No difference.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:48 am

Amelia Bedelia wrote:

You're right. Sometimes teachers say stupid things- like all humans. But I wouldn't generalize that the entire school believes that way.

It's not the teachers that say it, it's the principles.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:49 am

amother Whitewash wrote:

And I disagree. I send to places where my kids wear the same in and out of school. No difference.

I get it. But most schools do have uniforms. So should girls wear uniform even when there's no school? Is it wrong chinuch for girls to wear regular clothing when there's no school.

amother

↑ Whitewash ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:50 am

amother OP wrote:

Never heard of such a rule. Im obviously from a different type of community where these things just dont matter at all. Kids can wear whatever they want for shoes.
I guess these dress code things are so foreign to me that I just cant relate.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:51 am

amother OP wrote:

It’s not a valid example.
White shoes are not a part of halachic debate.
Coverage of leg is.

Following a halachic rule consistently and conveying halachic clarity to children is a question of chinuch clearly.

amother

↑ Whitewash

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:52 am

amother OP wrote:

I get it. But most schools do have uniforms. So should girls wear uniform even when there's no school? Is it wrong chinuch for girls to wear regular clothing when there's no school.

No, I think most yeshivish, black hat, chassidish communities do. Other than that, not most at all. Many do not.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:53 am

imaima wrote:

Afaik, there is no halacha that little girls have to cover their legs. (Though their legs are covered with their socks.)
Little kids wearing tights is a chassidish thing, not a halachic thing. It doesn't exist in the rest of the frum world.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:53 am

If you cover with tights from an older age but your entire street/ community covers from an earlier age, your neighbor might have a point. You might be bound to cover the way the majority covers halachically.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:55 am

imaima wrote:

Majority of our community actually does not wear tights or even knee socks at a young age. We live in a mixed community, there's no minhag hamakom here.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:56 am

amother OP wrote:

Women covering their legs are a subject in halachic discourse. The details vary, including who is considered a „little girl“.
White sneakers are not a subject in halacha. It is a school rule purely.
So when you start a thread about tights vs socks, there are many variables here that you didn’t mention in OP.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:56 am

amother OP wrote:

Majority of our community actually does not wear tights or even knee socks at a young age. We live in a mixed community, there's no minhag hamakom here.

Okay good. So the neighbor has no point. Maybe her kids want to wear socks and she blames you for giving them the idea

amother

Birch

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:57 am

I think there has to be a difference between things that are part of the uniform/dress code vs a shita.

Example. Light blue button down shirt. That's a school dress code. Obviously, you don't have to wear light blue button down shirts on Sunday or on vacation.

Long sleeves? Well depends on the crowd and community and age.

Do you think a Bais Yaakov girl could wear short sleeves on Sunday because "long sleeves is just a school dress code and I'm not in school"

So things like socks vs tights, exact ages for sleeves or skirt length really depends on the community and crowd and age.

I know some schools make it clear that when girls enter primary (Lakewood), short sleeves and short socks are no longer allowed. The Rabbanim they follow, etc. So if I sent my daughter to that school and put her in short sleeves, then yeah, it's confusing chinuch.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:57 am

imaima wrote:

Little girls (under 6-7) wearing knee socks is not a halachic subject afaik. It's purely a chassidish thing.
My kids go to more neutral chassidish schools & most little girls don't wear tights when there's no school. For us, it's a school rule like any other.

Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 10:58 am

imaima wrote:

It's not pork- for anybody- to not wear tights at three years old.

amother

DarkRed ↓

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:00 am

amother OP wrote:

First of all, nothing is not tzenuis cuz tzenuis is not a word. it's TZNIUS.
Second of all, you're a hundred percent right. The school should never have called white tights not tznius.

keym

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:02 am

amother OP wrote:

That's actually not true.

Little girls covering their legs starting at 3 is most definitely a halachic conversation with halachic responsa from the Mishna Brura, R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, and the Chazon Ish among others.

Personally, we're not makpid at 3, and we're never makpid on tights, knee socks that fully cover the leg is fine according to my shita.

But it's incorrect to say that there's no halachic conversation or source.

amother

Smokey

Fri, Aug 02 2024, 11:06 am

amother DarkRed wrote:

First of all, nothing is not tzenuis cuz tzenuis is not a word. it's TZNIUS.
Second of all, you're a hundred percent right. The school should never have called white tights not tznius.

I mean if we want to get technical about it, it’s really tzanua/not tzanua.