Toronto | Imamother

↑ mom24b ↓

Wed, Jul 24 2024, 10:00 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

About more rigid hashkafa- a lot of things that are basically ok in town are still not considered mainstream in Toronto. The examples I think of are dress related like women jogging in leggings under a skirt and sneakers, wearing a tichel to the grocery store (ppl definitely do it but it’s much more done in Flatbush and Monsey than in Toronto), not wearing stockings in the summer with midi skirts, men wearing jeans sometimes, women going to secular college and working professionally in the outside world. In general I believe it’s harder to be out of the box yeshivish in Toronto. That was my experience and I know ppl who agree with me but of course everyone will have their own experience. I haven’t lived there since I got married but visit very often and have lots of family there. Lower academic level- I think it goes with Canada having less of a hustle culture and being less competitive in general. The schools aren’t trying to teach more than the next, and they aren’t teaching in as high of a level as TAG, BYA, YSV etc (those are the schools I had relatives in growing up that I could compare to). Academics aren’t stressed as much as they are in NY. BY elementary though is a well run, warm school, they care about the students, I had a great experience there. If you’re moving with little kids I feel like this will be less of a concern though.

I don’t believe you are correct in terms of English academics not my experience at all, but I must be ancient. We had to have 6 OAC credits in order to graduate 12th grade. OAC credits took the place of grade 13 (yes I’m old - my sisters actually had grade 13). That being said OAC credits are equivalent to college credits in USA. I believe the English standards are higher than USA. Universities in Toronto are on much higher standards then the average college in USA . In my days U of T would take a BY graduate with an average of 85 over a public school graduate with a 95 average because the university recognized BY education system to be superior (all classes given were advanced). At least in my days that was the case . I hope BY didn’t change their standards , but I doubt this is of concern to OP.
Seeing that OP DH is going to kollel I doubt that the other things you mentioned are of any concern to OP but just so you know there is a large crowd that do wear leggings under skirts and tichels when they exercise they just change afterwards not for hashkafic reasons but because they like to go out looking presentable….

amother

↑ Cyan

Wed, Jul 24 2024, 10:01 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Oh my, I have words. I just need to find them

amother

↑ Molasses ↓

Wed, Jul 24 2024, 10:16 pm

About the academics- grade 13 was abolished over 30 years ago! I didn’t get any college equivalent credits from high school no such thing existed when I went to high school. I think BY high school in particular has changed a lot. The academics used to be much higher and are a lot lower now than they used to be, especially now that they cut down the class time for all secular classes. BY elementary was never particularly academic. Ner Yisroel though has a very good secular studies program, better than most places in the tri state area of similar hashkafa.

↑ mom24b ↓

Wed, Jul 24 2024, 10:17 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am looking for a warm , friendly community that's not too "out of towny" without the crazy rat race regarding every part of life (ruchnios , gashmios)

OP you are going to get a variety of answers on this depending on what “class” the poster is from. There are DEFINITELY
Noticeable differences among groups and classes of ppl. Both financially and hashkafically. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or completely removed from reality. When you say what area you live in, it is not just making a statement about your location but rather a statement of “what type “ you are and what class you belong in (both financially and hashkafically). There are a few streets down south that are somewhat of a melting pot and you can find a variety of “types” on those streets but only very select blocks…. However saying you live “up north” “clanton Park area” “aguda area” “Lawrence/bathurst area” “viewmount area” means a lot more than just the location you live in. Each area has a classification. That being said if you are part of a kollel you don’t have to worry (that’s a classification of its own 😉) but you will and can make friends with others in your area.

↑ mom24b ↓

Wed, Jul 24 2024, 10:21 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

30yrs ago?!?! I feel like I just graduated !! But I guess you are correct, I graduated 30yrs ago.
I think OAC credits were around for a long time. How old are you?? I’m surprised and sad to learn about BY the one thing they had was decent academic standards

amother

↑ Cinnamon ↓

Wed, Jul 24 2024, 10:33 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

I graduated from BYHS 12 years ago and we definitely had classes that were university level or college level (ie “high” math and chemistry gave university level credits).

amother

Catmint ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 2:03 am

amother Olive wrote:

I grew up there a while ago (went to school in the 90s) and unless things things have changed dramatically, I question the tuition assistance.

I grew up in the north but I have horrible memories of the shame and embarrassment my parents endured asking for tuition assistance. Hopefully things are different now. We struggled financially a LOT. That said some of my closest friends growing up and until today were from extraordinarily weathly families. The socioeconomic differences did not prevent really friendships. I think that speaks volumes about the community.

I think this is about what we had with tuition. Late 1990s, early 2000s.

You are right about the bolded.

I did not find that I liked Toronto.

OP traffic is not bad, but kosher food and housing are expensive. Yes there is a rat race, there is a standard of living. Cleaning ladies are very very common, houses are concentrated around Bathurst area so it does get expensive. I don't know anyone who isn't a young couple that lived in basements, it's not like Lakewood where you might still live in a basement with 2-3 kids.

There are lots of shuls and in the shuls the ladies are usually friendly. Take your pick of schools but there's usually just one for any given hashkafa/ community, but lots of different options. If you need special ed you will be stuck, there isn't much religious special ed around.

I always felt the community was very prim and proper. Some nice people but I always felt judged. In retrospect I don't know how much of that was my family's perspective and how much was the community, but I was really not happy there, we were really only there because we have extended family in Toronto.

I was not really happy there, very glad not to live in Toronto anymore. Of five siblings, only one lives in Toronto and is happy there (another lives in Toronto and has wanted to leave for years).

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 9:15 am

amother Catmint wrote:

Interesting that they don't have much of religious special ed..

amother

↑ Catmint ↓

Thu, Jul 25 2024, 5:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

Interesting that they don't have much of religious special ed..

Well there is KCC, but it is full-day therapies, they don't do much in the way of academics, and it isn't intended for kids who can do the academics. For instance an HFASD kid who has massive social/emotional/behavioral issues and self-regulation issues but is bright and the only thing they excel at is academics, there's nothing for that. You can send to Netivot and Associated but that's not really religious from what I gather. (Netivot used to be more religious, from what I understand they aren't so much anymore.) Eitz Chaim has in-class help for some kids, but not for every grade and space is very limited. And it is mostly shadows, less the therapies.
I don't know what the chassidish BY school has but BYES doesn't have special ed at all though in our day they did have a very good school counselor and even for some grades a remedial teacher for slower learners (but only if there were enough in a grade and it was a lower level slower class, not true special ed).

Honestly it's a very good question, why do they not have special ed for religious kids.

Zareinu used to be the answer, they were in Ohr Ha'emet, but they were really only for very physically challenged or intellectually challenged children, like the extreme cases if you know what I mean, kids who aren't going to be independent ever. Not "regular" special ed who have a shot at a normal life. Not sure if I am being clear.

It is a real question, why does Toronto not have. I am guessing the answer lies somewhere along the funding/ demand/ private school axis. I am sure there is enough need for special ed but maybe not enough awareness, or maybe it really is a funding thing, or a liability thing, I don't know. If I wanted to go back to Toronto I'd want to fix the problem but I don't ever want to live there again....

amother

↑ Catmint ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 12:53 am

amother OP wrote:

So I'm seeing more negative than positives...

Perhaps..... Sorry for my role in that. It may just be inherent imamother bias, that there aren't too many Torontonians on here.

If your kids are young and this is temporary for your husband's kollel you might not need to worry about special ed.

There is a huge Jewish community, including a huge frum community, who live in Toronto, so I assume there are positives and at least some people are happy there - even if many many leave.

But there is a place in this world for everyone. For some people Toronto is that place. Maybe you are one of those people.

Good luck!!