 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Infants
amother
|
 Tue, Jul 16 2024, 1:56 am
| miami85 wrote: | I said it earlier if you KNOW that ALL they need is sleep, then a few minutes will not damage them. If the crying gets sharp or escalates after a few minutes, then you know baby is not ready for sleep and you try again.
It's never "cry it out indefinitely".
At 7 months it is definitely "developmentally appropriate", they should be sleeping on their own. |
A lot of 7 month olds do not sleep through the night.
Developmentally babies don’t self soothe independently. This isn’t how they are biologically hardwired. Research Dr Laura Markham’s work for more understanding of how babies develop and regulate themselves.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 4
|
amother
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 1:59 am
| miami85 wrote: | | That is only true up until 4 months. After 4-6 months, babies can start figuring out how to self-soothe. 7-8 months for sure, otherwise you are setting yourself up for creating bad habits. |
This is getting a bit repetitive but once again this is inaccurate. Please do your own research to understand babies development and how their attachment works. Babies learn how to self soothe and regulate from a caregiver who is regulated and can soothe them.
This is where a short term investment yields a long term gain where emotional health and intelligence and a secure and healthy attachment is at stake.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
amother
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 2:04 am
| amother Cyclamen wrote: | | I think every parent should do what feels right regarding sleep, but I disagree that CIO is inherently harmful. (I work in children’s mental health.) Studies do show that having a depressed, anxious mother is harmful. The study you cited elsewhere regarding cortisol levels in sleep trained babies was very poorly done and is definitely not accepted as truth. |
I disagree and the research disagrees with you.
CIO is inherently harmful and as a mental health practitioner you probably see the outcomes of this more likely then not.
https://www.psychologytoday.co.....t?amp
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
amother
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 7:39 am
| amother Emerald wrote: | I don’t know if this is called sleep training but what I did at that age was slept on the floor near baby and each time they woke up I would pat them to sleep reassure them I was there given them a drink of water, teddy or paci. it was hard but after a week of being very consistent it worked. It only gets harder as they get older and I always remind myself why I’m doing it it’s better to spend one week like this then the next few years struggling. Sometimes babies need help learning to self settle.
Good luck. |
It’s part of sleep training.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 7:42 am
| amother Birch wrote: | This is getting a bit repetitive but once again this is inaccurate. Please do your own research to understand babies development and how their attachment works. Babies learn how to self soothe and regulate from a caregiver who is regulated and can soothe them.
This is where a short term investment yields a long term gain where emotional health and intelligence and a secure and healthy attachment is at stake. |
You can sleep train staring at 4 months old.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
3
|
|
amother
NeonPurple
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 7:51 am
|
Why do you think it's better not to sleep train and for you to make yourself into a rag over that? Do you think that's helpful for your child that her mother is perpetually exhausted and can't take care of her own physical and emotional needs? And neglecting your marriage isn't too great either. Not all sleep training is bad. A seven month old who eats solids shouldn't need to eat so often during the night.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
4
|
Pomelo
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 11:20 am
Here is an article refuting that from the same pop-publication.
https://www.psychologytoday.co.....t-out
There really is no (good) research to support the dangers of CIO, and a lot of research that supports the dangers of sleep-deprived mothers.
That being said, my general recommendation to mothers is 'you do you." If there were one right way to raise a family, we'd all be doing it. A loved, cared for child will develop secure attachments if they are attended to whenever they cry or if they CIO. I think the big difference is, which is better for the mother's mental health! And I really believe that depends on the mother! Personally, I find it is harder psychologically for me to do CIO the more kids I have. It was very easy with baby 1, harder with baby 4. But I know that is not the norm.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
↑
tichellady
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 11:29 am
|
The research is all conflicting. I also don’t know of any studies that look at what it’s like for a baby to have a mother who is not functioning due to sleep deprivation
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
↑
miami85
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 12:58 pm
| amother Birch wrote: | This is getting a bit repetitive but once again this is inaccurate. Please do your own research to understand babies development and how their attachment works. Babies learn how to self soothe and regulate from a caregiver who is regulated and can soothe them.
This is where a short term investment yields a long term gain where emotional health and intelligence and a secure and healthy attachment is at stake. |
This WAS the advice from my pediatrician thank you. I did say 6-8 they CAN do it, and it takes time for them to master it, it doesn't mean you can't try, and you keep missing my first step--you MUST ensure that ALL other factors are accounted for. Making a baby cry who is in pain--whether it is teething or gas, that is cruel. If the crying escalates or gets sharper, then that's a sign of baby in distress.
From Taking Cara Babies (noted sleep training site): Many (and maybe even most) babies can sleep 10-12 hours through the night without a feeding at seven months, but some babies do best maintaining one.
It is NOT normal for a 7 month old to still be waking "every 2 hours" or more than once per night. You need to recondition your baby to not get food during the night. I learned this the hard way with my first and it was only when I moved him out of my room and he was further away from me at night did he stop waking up at night.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
|
amother
Burlywood
|
Tue, Jul 16 2024, 7:35 pm
|
I didn’t officially sleep train my baby but at 9 months I took away his nigh time formula bottle and gave water instead. After a week or so he realized wasn’t worth getting up for. Now at a year he sleeps mostly but occasionally gets up to be patted back to sleep
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:01 am
Below is an excerpt from a Q and A with Dr Laura Markham. It’s in regards to allowing a 21 month old cry at night to sleep. In the process of her answer you can get some explanation about how babies and toddlers self soothe from being in the presence of an adult who soothes them.
“ 21 month old is still a baby, and in my view needs parenting at night just as much as during the day. The idea that little ones learn to self-soothe by being left to "figure it out for themselves" is wish-fulfillment. Humans learn to self-soothe by being soothed. That's simply how brain development works. When a baby or young child cries and is soothed, he experiences soothing biochemicals and begins to develop the neural pathways to deliver those soothing neurotransmitters to himself for the rest of his life. His neurology organizes itself so that he does learn, eventually, to soothe himself. But if he cries and no one responds, it triggers his survival panic. That's because nature has designed us for survival, and a 21 month old left without parents nearby is indeed in danger of his life. Naturally, he panics.
If this happens once in the context of a secure and loving relationship with both of his parents, I would hope that it would have little effect, although this is not a question science has yet answered. However, science has made great progress in the past decade in mapping infant brain development and forming credible hypotheses on the effects of various parenting practices on babies. I think most researchers in the field would agree that repeatedly leaving a 21 month old to cry will certainly have an effect on the child's neural development. All the brain research I have read suggests that leaving a little one alone to cry will make this human more likely to panic in challenging emotional situations, especially ones that threaten abandonment. (That means that he would have a harder time than usual dealing with a romantic breakup or a death, or even the rejection of being fired or not chosen for something.) His tendency to get upset about little things will be heightened and his ability to soothe himself will be compromised, which could make for a more "dramatic" and "difficult" personality.
We know that with children who are preverbal, there is less continuity in their feeling states, and memories are stored differently. That means that while a baby who has been left to cry may seem fine the next morning, he is storing up those experiences of having been terrified, and they are still affecting him. We don't know exactly how, but we certainly know that children who are slightly older who have experiences of feeling abandoned remember those experiences as traumatic throughout their lives. We also know that fear is at the root of much of the acting out that children do, including, often, their angry and obstinate behavior.
“So while leaving children to cry alone at night may teach them to give up on calling for us, everything I have learned has convinced me that the cost is just too high.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:04 am
To start sleep training with less food at night and crying is abusive at 4 months.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
1
|
#BestBubby
↓
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:26 am
| amother Birch wrote: | Below is an excerpt from a Q and A with Dr Laura Markham. It’s in regards to allowing a 21 month old cry at night to sleep. In the process of her answer you can get some explanation about how babies and toddlers self soothe from being in the presence of an adult who soothes them.
“ 21 month old is still a baby, and in my view needs parenting at night just as much as during the day. The idea that little ones learn to self-soothe by being left to "figure it out for themselves" is wish-fulfillment. Humans learn to self-soothe by being soothed. That's simply how brain development works. When a baby or young child cries and is soothed, he experiences soothing biochemicals and begins to develop the neural pathways to deliver those soothing neurotransmitters to himself for the rest of his life. His neurology organizes itself so that he does learn, eventually, to soothe himself. But if he cries and no one responds, it triggers his survival panic. That's because nature has designed us for survival, and a 21 month old left without parents nearby is indeed in danger of his life. Naturally, he panics.
If this happens once in the context of a secure and loving relationship with both of his parents, I would hope that it would have little effect, although this is not a question science has yet answered. However, science has made great progress in the past decade in mapping infant brain development and forming credible hypotheses on the effects of various parenting practices on babies. I think most researchers in the field would agree that repeatedly leaving a 21 month old to cry will certainly have an effect on the child's neural development. All the brain research I have read suggests that leaving a little one alone to cry will make this human more likely to panic in challenging emotional situations, especially ones that threaten abandonment. (That means that he would have a harder time than usual dealing with a romantic breakup or a death, or even the rejection of being fired or not chosen for something.) His tendency to get upset about little things will be heightened and his ability to soothe himself will be compromised, which could make for a more "dramatic" and "difficult" personality.
We know that with children who are preverbal, there is less continuity in their feeling states, and memories are stored differently. That means that while a baby who has been left to cry may seem fine the next morning, he is storing up those experiences of having been terrified, and they are still affecting him. We don't know exactly how, but we certainly know that children who are slightly older who have experiences of feeling abandoned remember those experiences as traumatic throughout their lives. We also know that fear is at the root of much of the acting out that children do, including, often, their angry and obstinate behavior.
“So while leaving children to cry alone at night may teach them to give up on calling for us, everything I have learned has convinced me that the cost is just too high. |
Disagree.
You make sure your baby knows you are in the house.
Open the door and tell baby " shhhh, go shluffy"
The baby may cry from not getting her way but knows she is not abandoned.
The baby will learn that night is for sleeping,
not mommy time.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
↑
#BestBubby
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:27 am
As for respecting "experts"
The "experts" say men can get pregnant.
Nuff said.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 7:39 am
| amother Birch wrote: | | To start sleep training with less food at night and crying is abusive at 4 months. |
The beginning of sleep training you do feed them. (At night)? And you also feed them more in the day as well.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
↑
cosa
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 7:41 am
| amother Birch wrote: | Below is an excerpt from a Q and A with Dr Laura Markham. It’s in regards to allowing a 21 month old cry at night to sleep. In the process of her answer you can get some explanation about how babies and toddlers self soothe from being in the presence of an adult who soothes them.
“ 21 month old is still a baby, and in my view needs parenting at night just as much as during the day. The idea that little ones learn to self-soothe by being left to "figure it out for themselves" is wish-fulfillment. Humans learn to self-soothe by being soothed. That's simply how brain development works. When a baby or young child cries and is soothed, he experiences soothing biochemicals and begins to develop the neural pathways to deliver those soothing neurotransmitters to himself for the rest of his life. His neurology organizes itself so that he does learn, eventually, to soothe himself. But if he cries and no one responds, it triggers his survival panic. That's because nature has designed us for survival, and a 21 month old left without parents nearby is indeed in danger of his life. Naturally, he panics.
If this happens once in the context of a secure and loving relationship with both of his parents, I would hope that it would have little effect, although this is not a question science has yet answered. However, science has made great progress in the past decade in mapping infant brain development and forming credible hypotheses on the effects of various parenting practices on babies. I think most researchers in the field would agree that repeatedly leaving a 21 month old to cry will certainly have an effect on the child's neural development. All the brain research I have read suggests that leaving a little one alone to cry will make this human more likely to panic in challenging emotional situations, especially ones that threaten abandonment. (That means that he would have a harder time than usual dealing with a romantic breakup or a death, or even the rejection of being fired or not chosen for something.) His tendency to get upset about little things will be heightened and his ability to soothe himself will be compromised, which could make for a more "dramatic" and "difficult" personality.
We know that with children who are preverbal, there is less continuity in their feeling states, and memories are stored differently. That means that while a baby who has been left to cry may seem fine the next morning, he is storing up those experiences of having been terrified, and they are still affecting him. We don't know exactly how, but we certainly know that children who are slightly older who have experiences of feeling abandoned remember those experiences as traumatic throughout their lives. We also know that fear is at the root of much of the acting out that children do, including, often, their angry and obstinate behavior.
“So while leaving children to cry alone at night may teach them to give up on calling for us, everything I have learned has convinced me that the cost is just too high. |
This sounds to be agreeing with what most people are saying - to do CIO in a controlled manner to an older baby, which takes 1-3 nights tops. No one is allowing their baby to cry it out every night, which I agree would be damaging. As long as children's needs are met consistently throughout their childhood, letting them cry (not scream) a small number of times at night is not doing much harm.
As for my myself, my 20 month old wakes about once a month. As long as he is not screaming, I leave him up to about 10 min then bring him into my bed for a cuddle. If he was waking "repeatedly" as the article said, I would see that this method is not working and would have to figure something else out, probably talk to a sleep therapist (I actually did do a sleep study on him when he was an infant because he was snoring and waking repeatedly, which of course I would tend to. Bh all was good.)
Again, in an ideal world no one would do CIO.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
3
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 9:26 am
| amother Birch wrote: | Below is an excerpt from a Q and A with Dr Laura Markham. It’s in regards to allowing a 21 month old cry at night to sleep. In the process of her answer you can get some explanation about how babies and toddlers self soothe from being in the presence of an adult who soothes them.
“ 21 month old is still a baby, and in my view needs parenting at night just as much as during the day. The idea that little ones learn to self-soothe by being left to "figure it out for themselves" is wish-fulfillment. Humans learn to self-soothe by being soothed. That's simply how brain development works. When a baby or young child cries and is soothed, he experiences soothing biochemicals and begins to develop the neural pathways to deliver those soothing neurotransmitters to himself for the rest of his life. His neurology organizes itself so that he does learn, eventually, to soothe himself. But if he cries and no one responds, it triggers his survival panic. That's because nature has designed us for survival, and a 21 month old left without parents nearby is indeed in danger of his life. Naturally, he panics.
If this happens once in the context of a secure and loving relationship with both of his parents, I would hope that it would have little effect, although this is not a question science has yet answered. However, science has made great progress in the past decade in mapping infant brain development and forming credible hypotheses on the effects of various parenting practices on babies. I think most researchers in the field would agree that repeatedly leaving a 21 month old to cry will certainly have an effect on the child's neural development. All the brain research I have read suggests that leaving a little one alone to cry will make this human more likely to panic in challenging emotional situations, especially ones that threaten abandonment. (That means that he would have a harder time than usual dealing with a romantic breakup or a death, or even the rejection of being fired or not chosen for something.) His tendency to get upset about little things will be heightened and his ability to soothe himself will be compromised, which could make for a more "dramatic" and "difficult" personality.
We know that with children who are preverbal, there is less continuity in their feeling states, and memories are stored differently. That means that while a baby who has been left to cry may seem fine the next morning, he is storing up those experiences of having been terrified, and they are still affecting him. We don't know exactly how, but we certainly know that children who are slightly older who have experiences of feeling abandoned remember those experiences as traumatic throughout their lives. We also know that fear is at the root of much of the acting out that children do, including, often, their angry and obstinate behavior.
“So while leaving children to cry alone at night may teach them to give up on calling for us, everything I have learned has convinced me that the cost is just too high. |
Firstly, self soothing is learned by a combination of the adult usually soothing the child and then giving them opportunities to practice doing the same for themselves
Secondly, If he repeatedly cries and no one helps him it would make him feel abandoned if it happens consistently throughout the day too, and if he cries for a long time without any response. Not if you are there throughout the day and then at night check in and make sure he’s ok, and then keep checking in to let him know you’re here and comfort him every few minutes.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
1
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:10 pm
| amother Heather wrote: | | The beginning of sleep training you do feed them. (At night)? And you also feed them more in the day as well. |
It’s still cruel to allow babies to cry at 4 months for food in middle of the night. Babies nurse for hunger , thirst and comfort. Even proponents of CIO say to wait until a baby is older then 4 months. Although CIO shouldn’t be done at any age.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:11 pm
| cosa wrote: |
This sounds to be agreeing with what most people are saying - to do CIO in a controlled manner to an older baby, which takes 1-3 nights tops. No one is allowing their baby to cry it out every night, which I agree would be damaging. As long as children's needs are met consistently throughout their childhood, letting them cry (not scream) a small number of times at night is not doing much harm.
As for my myself, my 20 month old wakes about once a month. As long as he is not screaming, I leave him up to about 10 min then bring him into my bed for a cuddle. If he was waking "repeatedly" as the article said, I would see that this method is not working and would have to figure something else out, probably talk to a sleep therapist (I actually did do a sleep study on him when he was an infant because he was snoring and waking repeatedly, which of course I would tend to. Bh all was good.)
Again, in an ideal world no one would do CIO. |
You are misunderstanding her. Dr Laura is strongly opposed to CIO in any form including Ferber.
10 minutes is a very long time to allow a baby to cry.
You can research other articles from her to gain a clearer picture on CIO and its harm.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
amother
|
Wed, Jul 17 2024, 12:14 pm
| amother Tomato wrote: | Firstly, self soothing is learned by a combination of the adult usually soothing the child and then giving them opportunities to practice doing the same for themselves
Secondly, If he repeatedly cries and no one helps him it would make him feel abandoned if it happens consistently throughout the day too, and if he cries for a long time without any response. Not if you are there throughout the day and then at night check in and make sure he’s ok, and then keep checking in to let him know you’re here and comfort him every few minutes. |
This is inaccurate. Self soothing isn’t learned from baby practicing by themselves. It’s learned solely from an adult who is regulated who soothes them.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
| Related Topics |
Replies |
Last Post |
|
|
Don't the kollel men have off during the day now?!
|
73 |
Tue, Oct 15 2024, 5:36 pm  |
|
|
How do you teach a 2.5 year old to sleep own bed
|
19 |
Wed, Oct 09 2024, 11:13 pm |
|
|
Don't fasting pills need FDA approval? Anyone else nervous?
|
14 |
Wed, Oct 09 2024, 4:28 pm |
|
|
When you can’t sleep at night…. (Teen vent)
|
62 |
Tue, Oct 08 2024, 10:58 am |
|
|
When To Train?
|
11 |
Sun, Oct 06 2024, 7:14 pm |
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
