S/o: Seminary is NOT a luxury!

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:30 pm

imaima wrote:

This is a very misguided post colored by your own experiences.

1. Not every girl go to school just because they are obligated by law. Many children enjoy school and at age 16-18 are mature enough to think about what they want to do in life. For many teens school is enjoyable and exciting.

2. College is pretty much also a time for exploration too.

3. Men have a mitzvah of learning Torah and we believe that they benefit the entire community. Women are not obligated to learn Torah and their learning is not as valuable. That’s why people do their best to prolong a man’s learning and 20k is justified for some, but it doesn’t apply to girls.
I have seen it many times that people would sponsor yeshiva learning for a gifted boy from a poor family, but not for a girl from the same family.
So the conclusion is that a boy’s learning is foe all of klal Yisroel and a girl’s learning is purely for a girl.
The gamble whether the girl in sem will mature and grow or will she gain 20 pounds from fressing on Ben Yehuda every day and have a miserable year and cry herself to sleep every night is very real.

Even if a girl enjoys school, there is a huge difference between attending something by choice and attending something obligatory. (Which is a good reason to ensure that girls are not given the impression that seminary is obligatory...)

DD is not going to college, so her "time for exploration" would be her sem year. Otherwise she'd go straight to work. And if she's going to explore, I'd much rather that be in a frum and supportive environment, not out in the world where exploration has no boundaries...

Women may not have a mitzvah to learn Torah, but their Torah learning is still a mitzvah. And because it enables them to establish a Torah-true home, it will absolutely benefit the entire community.

The fact that donors only consider boys learning is just a reflection of society not taking women seriously.

Yeshiva is also a gamble. In DS's yeshiva there are boys who shmooze all day and eat all night, and boys that learn all day and night. It's not just sem girls. But for some reason it's okay to take the risk with boys and not with girls.

I'd hope that each parent would consider if seminary is right for their daughter and if so which one. That they'd discuss their expectations with their child in advance. That they would provide a reasonable amount of spending money and not enough for her to go out to eat every night. It's only a free-for-all if you set it up to be one.

↑ imaima ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

Please clarify, then.

You responded to a woman who asked, "which yeshivas are $25k"? with "American yeshivas in Israel," which you stated was absolutely a luxury.

American yeshivas in America are also $25k, though. So why is only the Israeli version a luxury?

Because you didn’t specify first where your son was learning.

BTW I don’t see Israeli girls having a year for spiritual growth. They go to a seminary that teaches a trade or degree. A seminary year in Israel is absolutely a luxury construct to milk American families.

↑ imaima ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

How can you compare an ilui boy learning Torah very seriously and his sister learning accounting or computer science? Yes money is needed for both but I am not surprised why people want to be part of the first mizva more than the second one…

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

I see this on a lot of threads. Seminary is such a terrible waste of money, a real luxury, how could it have become standard.

It's not right for everyone, but I do not think sem is a luxury at all!

Think about it. Girls go through high school and have to do so legally. They are forced go to class, do the work, and pass to get a high school diploma.

Without seminary, afterwards they will be forced to go full-time into parnasa, either working or going to college.

Some girls want that, and good for them. Nobody should be pressured to go to seminary.

But other girls would benefit from having one year to learn for its own sake. To live away from home but in a structured environment, with other girls. To get to see a new place, meet inspiring role models, and have some time to think about what type of life they want to build for themselves.

That's not a luxury. It's a very helpful transition phase from high school student to independent adult.

Sure you can survive without seminary, but the definition of luxury is not "anything not absolutely essential for survival."

There may be specific seminaries that are more expensive, but the general framework (a dorm, more freedom than high school, choosing to learn without a diploma threat) is not a luxury at all.

Additionally this "sem is a luxury" attitude is very chauvinist. Boys finish high school and are not told immediately to go to work. They go to several years of very expensive Beis Medrash. Even outside of the super charedi community a "gap year" of learning for boys is standard.

People complain about the $20K price tag of seminary, but DS is in yet another year of Beis Medrash in the USA with a sticker price of $25K and nobody tells me that I should stop getting tuition assistance since I have a 19yo in such an expensive school (I don't even think his is the most expensive).

But if I give DD that one year of seminary, I obviously have messed up priorities and should not be getting any breaks.

So then pray tell, what IS the definition of luxury?
Also, just because someone will benefit from something does not mean it is something that they MUST have.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:45 pm

imaima wrote:

In seminary they don't learn accounting or computer science. They learn Torah.

Yes I get why boys > girls, and ilui > regular boy, but at least among ourselves we should have our priorities in place.

↑ imaima ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

Is it a wrong priority to value men‘s learning? It is the basis of the entire yeshiva/sem culture in the first place!

Also in the eyes of the tuition committee I can see the logic. If a girl wasn’t in a sem, people get that she wanted to move on sooner or the family couldn’t afford it, but if a boy wasn’t in a yeshiva, societally he would be an absolute outcast!!! Which means that you cannot not send a boy but with the girl, you have options.

amother

Daffodil ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:53 pm

imaima wrote:

I don't think seminaries have tuition committees. There might be a few discounts or scholarships perhaps for Klei kodesh families but that's the extent of it, it's nothing like tuition for k-12, you are basically expected to pay the fees and that's it.

Yet, I've never heard of a boy who had to leave yeshiva bec his parents couldn't afford the full tuition. Things get worked out. If a boy leaves at a younger than typical age, it's because he chose to leave. And disregard the hypoberlic statements often posted here, boys who leave yeshiva but stay frum are not treated or viewed as outcasts. Perhaps it may raise an eyebrow or two as it isn't the typical expected path, but it isn't the biggest deal, either.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2024, 11:58 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So then pray tell, what IS the definition of luxury?
Also, just because someone will benefit from something does not mean it is something that they MUST have.

Luxury is a hard word to define because there are too many gray areas. It's easy when it's something with no tangible advantage over the alternatives except prestige and pleasure.

And when the benefits are significant enough, it may not be a necessity, but it isn't a luxury either. A night nurse for a new twin mother is one example.

Brand name sweatshirt = luxury
Diamond tennis bracelet = luxury
Pesach in the Bahamas = luxury
BMW = luxury

But...
Reliable car = ?
Washer and dryer in your home = ?
Diamond ring when getting married = ? (I didn't get one)

And circumstances change things too.
Dishwasher (for me) = not luxury
Brand name shoes (for me - SAS not Balenciaga) = not luxury
Live-in (for my friend with newborn triplets) = not luxury

For many people college is a luxury also, especially when they go in without a clear degree path.

Perhaps if the educational system was set up differently, seminary would be an absolute luxury. But in a great amount of cases, it is not. It meets a need that high school doesn't, and for many girls it is a necessary time to enable them to have a proper foundation for their future life.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:00 am

amother Daffodil wrote:

As far as I understood, a tuition committee in OP‘s other kids school said that a sem for her daughter is a luxury and doesn’t want to give her a break. They didn’t say the same about her son’s yeshiva.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:02 am

amother OP wrote:

Luxury is a hard word to define because there are too many gray areas. It's easy when it's something with no tangible advantage over the alternatives except prestige and pleasure.

And when the benefits are significant enough, it may not be a necessity, but it isn't a luxury either. A night nurse for a new twin mother is one example.

Brand name sweatshirt = luxury
Diamond tennis bracelet = luxury
Pesach in the Bahamas = luxury
BMW = luxury

But...
Reliable car = ?
Washer and dryer in your home = ?
Diamond ring when getting married = ?

And circumstances change things too.
Dishwasher (for me) = not luxury
Brand name shoes (for me - SAS not Balenciaga) = not luxury
Live-in (for my friend with newborn triplets) = not luxury

For many people college is a luxury also, especially when they go in without a clear degree path.

Perhaps if the educational system was set up differently, seminary would be an absolute luxury. But in a great amount of cases, it is not. It meets a need that high school doesn't, and for many girls it is a necessary time to enable them to have a proper foundation for their future life.

What foundation are they getting in a sem that they would not get just in living life?
I went to sem. The only thing I got for my future life was the fact that I wanted to remain in Israel. But other than that, I did not get anything foundational in terms of my future life.

amother

↑ Daffodil

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:03 am

imaima wrote:

There's a certain school that holds that way that I know of, but not the majority. Just like some schools take into account if parents are helping to support a kollel couple and others don't accept that as a reason to give a deduction. A lot depends on the rabbanim of the community/city and what they feel is appropriate.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:07 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Considering that such a decision is a majorly pivotal one in your future life, I wonder why you count that as an "only." That's a pretty big deal in my book!

Seminary didn't teach me specific things as much as give me the space to think about what my values actually are. And while I can't point to anything as dramatic as you, I'm a lot more confident in the direction of my life thanks to having that experience.

That time to really think before I got thrown into the deep end of life was invaluable.

Elfrida ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:42 am

imaima wrote:

The Beis Yaakov system in Israel is set up to encourage the girls to continue in kitot yud-gimmel and yud-dalad after finishing tichon. That's a combination of continued Torah study and career training. Its becoming more commen for them to also take bagruyiot (out of the school misgeret) during this period.

Dati Leumi girls do bagruyiot at school, and then will often do a year or two of sherut leumi. After that, they might have a year or two at midrasha, before continuing to university or some other training. That year ir two in sherut leumi means they are normally a lot more mature a d motivated when they go midrasha. They've had time with responsibilities in the real world, and if they choose to go to midrasha it's because they really want that learning.

Both groups have advanced torah learning built in after they have finished school.