S/o: Seminary is NOT a luxury!

Queen Of Hearts ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:13 am

I did the best of both worlds. I attended a local half day seminary. I wasn't thrown straight into the deep water of work but neither was I attending yet another year of school (which seminary really is).
But how can you call a year in Israel where the girls have no responsibilities and gallivanting around Yerushalayim not a luxury??
Is spending Sukkos or Pesach with your whole family not a luxury? You bet it is!

Besides it is common knowledge that girls straight out of seminary should take a few months break before starting shidduchim. They still have stars in their eyes. They were fed so much about living a kollel lifestyle that most are ready to commit to it right then and there. But realistically many really aren't cut out for it.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:29 am

amother Pink wrote:

OP, im laughing.
Of course its a luxury!
If it isnt a luxury, then its a necessity. Necessities are things that one NEEDS, without wihich they would be sorely lacking and it would affect them in a serious way.

Lets be real.
For the typical, grown up young lady who has completed 12+years of our chinuch system, who has been raised in a normal family by loving parents, who has not been "parentified" or abused and who is not desperately seeking to get out of her house....seminary is not a vital need.
It is completely a luxury.

Just because something has its merits doesnt make it necessary.

My brand new minivan is amazng in the benefits it has provided us. We BH no longer have frequent mechanic trips, we have a reliable vehicle, we can go on long road trips, my kids arent embarassed anymore at carpool pickup (our old car used to whine very loudly asi slowly drove around the carpol circle and had huge dents in it).
But it is a luxury, not a necessity.
My new shaitel that makes me feel like a mentch, has given me more confidence in public, and makes me prettier in my husband's eyes? A luxury.
The pre-chopped onions that make my erev shabbos prep so much more relaxed and stress free? Luxury.
Etc etc

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I think there are more than two categories. Not everything falls into the neat slots of "necessity" or "luxury."

There's necessities (minimum food, potable water, protection from the elements), luxuries (total extras which we should morally go without when not blessed with financial excess), and then a whole third category of reasonable expenses.

My refrigerator is not a necessity. It's a convenience, sure, but we'd survive without it. I'd shop more often, not make large batches of food, maybe learn to can things if I needed to save for later.

It's still a perfectly reasonable expense and not a luxury.

My zip hoodie sweatshirt is not a necessity. I could wrap myself in an old blanket for the same warmth. Yet it is also not a luxury. It is not a brand name item or made with genuine gold thread.

Seminary is a normal and reasonable expense for girls. It should not be required for those who don't want it, but also should not be considered a luxury only suitable for the wealthy.

As far as yeshivas, I don't know where others are looking at prices, but when going to a yeshiva with a dorm (a necessity for me), I found mesivta to be $15k-$20k, and Bais Medrash to be $25k. BMG's sticker price is also about $25,000 annually based on googling "BMG Lakewood tuition."

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:31 am

amother Amber wrote:

They don't need to go into shidduchim the minute they finish seminary. So they'll wait another six months .. which most girls coming back from seminary actually do anyways.

Are you serious? The 19 year old girl has to be the adult in the relationship with a 23 year old guy? I wouldn't let me daughter get married if I thought she was entering into that kind of relationship. It's not just unfair- it's completely obscene.

Umm.. what adult skills do yeshiva boys have? We don't allow them to gain life experience and navigate adulthood until they are married. So unless your daughter marries a working boy that is essentially their relationship as newlyweds.

I agree with you, it's unfair and a ridiculous way to start a marriage.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:38 am

amother OP wrote:

My zip hoodie sweatshirt is not a necessity. I could wrap myself in an old blanket for the same warmth. Yet it is also not a luxury. It is not a brand name item or made with genuine gold thread.

Seminary is a normal and reasonable expense for girls. It should not be required for those who don't want it, but also should not be considered a luxury only suitable for the wealthy.

I'll complete the comparison.

A zip hoodie is not a luxury. But a Chanel hoodie is a luxury. There are off brands or much cheaper versions that will provide the same functionality

Same with seminaries. The 20-30k seminaries are a luxury. You can find cheaper seminaries or other options that will provide very similar benefits.

There are a range of options for anyone who wants the benefits. Going after the most expensive / brand name option is almost always a luxury.

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 12:54 am

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

Well, that's another whole can of worms. I agree with you about rushing the girls into marriage, but regardless a sabbatical year at a costly seminary is still a luxury.

You ask why we rush the girls into adulthood. Well, we don't have much of a choice. We keep the boys from adulthood, we don't allow them to transition and take upon adult responsibilities. And we get them married that way. So how would a marriage work when neither spouse can manage adult responsibilities?

In order to maintain this system where boys get married before maturing into adulthood, we have to expedite the maturity of the girls so they can carry the responsibilities until their husbands catch up.

I agree with you that this disenfranchises the girls. This is all done to support the system we have set up for the men. But the girls are left carrying the bag with the overwhelming burdens. So now queue the mental health threads. This feeds directly into those.

Yup it’s quite the luxurious set up we've created for the young men. And here we have a website full of women urging the girls to grow up and shoulder adult responsibilities even faster.

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:00 am

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

So only working is considered a life skill?

I was 19 and my husband was 24 when we got married (over 30 years ago). My husband had plenty of life skills. He was also more independent than me because he had been on his own (in bais medrash in the US and in Israel) for a few years. (I had gone to a local seminary). I had been working for over a year, but I had always lived at home.

He drove, helped with budgeting and paying bills, he was the one looking for an apartment when we were engaged because I worked full time, after we were married he helped clean and cook. He also joined a paying kollel and tutored part time to help cover the bills.

He was bh very much a full partner and very much an adult in our marriage even though he was learning. I don't see why he shouldn't have been.

amother

Steel ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:04 am

Really learning should come with full worldly responsibilities for both genders. I don’t think not having responsibilities lends itself to the seriousness and yiras shamaim needed to learn. I think it becomes much more about ego and being smarter when there are no real world responsibilities attached. Regardless of gender. Plenty of very learned yeshiva bachurim lack basic yiras shamaim and mentshlichleit for this reason.

Our community’s tendency to demand it all from the woman so men can learn will backfire. And it has already begun to undermine the traditional gender roles that they so badly want. Long term it will only bite the men, and help women.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:06 am

amother Amber wrote:

No, and we are generalizing here. There are always exceptions. As a whole, men come into a marriage with very limited skills as compared to the women.

Consider yourself blessed.

amother

↑ Cantaloupe ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:06 am

amother Steel wrote:

Agree!!

amother

↑ Amber ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 1:11 am

amother Steel wrote:

I'm not seeing that at all. I see the men babysitting in the afternoons so their wives can work, men helping to clean and cook, grocery stores filled with men shopping on Thursdays and Fridays. Men joining paying kollels and tutoring on the side.

This is the norm that I see, and obviously SHOULD be the norm. Anything less is selling our girls short and is simply not fair to them.

imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:09 am

amother OP wrote:

I see this on a lot of threads. Seminary is such a terrible waste of money, a real luxury, how could it have become standard.

It's not right for everyone, but I do not think sem is a luxury at all!

Think about it. Girls go through high school and have to do so legally. They are forced go to class, do the work, and pass to get a high school diploma.

Without seminary, afterwards they will be forced to go full-time into parnasa, either working or going to college.

Some girls want that, and good for them. Nobody should be pressured to go to seminary.

But other girls would benefit from having one year to learn for its own sake. To live away from home but in a structured environment, with other girls. To get to see a new place, meet inspiring role models, and have some time to think about what type of life they want to build for themselves.

That's not a luxury. It's a very helpful transition phase from high school student to independent adult.

Sure you can survive without seminary, but the definition of luxury is not "anything not absolutely essential for survival."

There may be specific seminaries that are more expensive, but the general framework (a dorm, more freedom than high school, choosing to learn without a diploma threat) is not a luxury at all.

Additionally this "sem is a luxury" attitude is very chauvinist. Boys finish high school and are not told immediately to go to work. They go to several years of very expensive Beis Medrash. Even outside of the super charedi community a "gap year" of learning for boys is standard.

People complain about the $20K price tag of seminary, but DS is in yet another year of Beis Medrash in the USA with a sticker price of $25K and nobody tells me that I should stop getting tuition assistance since I have a 19yo in such an expensive school (I don't even think his is the most expensive).

But if I give DD that one year of seminary, I obviously have messed up priorities and should not be getting any breaks.

This is a very misguided post colored by your own experiences.

1. Not every girl go to school just because they are obligated by law. Many children enjoy school and at age 16-18 are mature enough to think about what they want to do in life. For many teens school is enjoyable and exciting.

2. College is pretty much also a time for exploration too.

3. Men have a mitzvah of learning Torah and we believe that they benefit the entire community. Women are not obligated to learn Torah and their learning is not as valuable. That’s why people do their best to prolong a man’s learning and 20k is justified for some, but it doesn’t apply to girls.
I have seen it many times that people would sponsor yeshiva learning for a gifted boy from a poor family, but not for a girl from the same family.
So the conclusion is that a boy’s learning is foe all of klal Yisroel and a girl’s learning is purely for a girl.
The gamble whether the girl in sem will mature and grow or will she gain 20 pounds from fressing on Ben Yehuda every day and have a miserable year and cry herself to sleep every night is very real.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:23 am

amother Wandflower wrote:

It’s incredibly chauvinistic. We don’t expect boys to be full fledged adults until they are almost 30 but we are now demanding that 18 year old girls immediately assume adult responsibilities without one extra year for themselves? Women always bear the brunt of community cutbacks and restrictions.

Why do you keep harping on this chavinistic point?
I am not even so yeshivish yet I am surprised people don’t get it.

In a spiritual realm of entire klal Yisroel, a man over 13 learning Torah is a priority. That’s why young men are encouraged to learn longer, at the time in their lives when they have the most time and mental capacity, and it is an investment to the spirituality of the entire community. And I don’t mean because they will then spread the knowledge, but on an entirely spiritual level. Don’t we have it as a value.

Yea of course learning is also for the learner themselves, and then you can question how is it fair that a girl cannot benefit as much, but it only makes sense if you forget the entire dimension that I have described above.

Last edited by imaima on Fri, Jun 28 2024, 2:24 am; edited 1 time in total