Your dd has a friend over... WWYD

amother

↑ Raspberry

Sun, Jun 02 2024, 5:38 pm

oohlala wrote:

To clarify, the culture of my block is not to run around in packs and run in and out of each others homes. Girls generally make plans before shabbos to play and hang out. Dropping in without making plans is trying ur luck and maybe the friend will be available and maybe not. I see no reason to invite in a girl who dropped by to play when my daughter made plans with someone else before shabbos. I think it’s disrespectful and disruptive to the girls who made plans. I would be very sweet about it and encourage my daughter to play with her another time, but I wouldn’t invite her in. I do not think this is a lack of midos. But it is basic mentchlachkeit to the friend who made plans.

How does one more girl 'disrupt' plans? What's wrong with sharing the joy and allowing one more girl into the circle. I can't imagine what kind of plans young girls have that would be significantly impacted by the presence of one more girl.

As an aside, this teaches kids to be very rigid instead of being flexible. It doesn't teach them to go with the flow and make room for others. Instead of using such opportunities to demonstrate how to open your heart to someone, this teaches them the opposite. Have you asked yourself what the Torah expects us to do in this situation?

But you know what really gets me here - your reference as this is being 'disrespectful' to the girls who made plans
Please explain how allowing an unexpected guest to join their circle as being disrespectful to them. What comes to my mind is that these girls are a clique and being encouraged to play with someone outside of their clique is beneath them.

ora_43 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 1:25 am

amother Raspberry wrote:

I don't understand this.

Of course a conversation with your best friend is different than a conversation with your best friend + a girl who you're sort of close with and your best friend barely knows.

That's true if you're 30 or 12 or 5.

Whether or not you think every newcomer should always be included, of course it's going to be different and of course plans are going to change.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 2:49 am

I don't think there's one, single answer to this.

Saying that a third person should always be turned away if they show up unexpectedly is very rigid and unwelcoming.

But OTOH, saying that anyone who wants to play with your child should always get to play with them right away seems equally wrong. Kids are allowed to want a private conversation with one specific person.

Overall? Depends on the circumstances.
- how often does the kid get to talk to the friend she's talking to now?
- how much would adding a 3rd kid change the dynamic?
- how far did the 3rd kid walk to get here?
- does the 3rd kid show up uninvited often?
- if it's a 'no' right now when is it a 'yes'?

If my kid is just sitting down to play a board game with a girl in her class, and a 3rd girl who's also in their class shows up, then of course they should invite her to join them.

If my kid is talking in her room with her best friend who's visiting from a different city, and a girl who lives on the block drops by, and my kid is willing to play with her soon just not right now, 'she's busy now, but she'll be at the playground at 5' is a perfectly reasonable answer IMO.

flowerpower ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 6:07 am

Dd classmates don’t just show up. That would be unusual. If someone knocked on the door I’d say one minute- let me find dd and go tell her who is at the door. If she is deep in middle of a game with a friend and she really doesn’t want another girl now I would tell her to put the game on hold if the girl came from more than a block away and never comes. If it’s stom a neighbor that always comes and has other options I’d tell her sweetly that she should come back in 20 minutes.

amother

Skyblue

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 6:32 am

amother Tanzanite wrote:

How do you know? I don’t answer the door to everybody who knocks. Not do I answer my phone every time someone calls. You can have some boundaries and tell someone politely that it’s not a good time, but welcomed to come back when it is. If it’s said kindly , no reason for a child to be insulted.
Children don’t have to be open and available to play with everyone and anyone who knocks on the door at any time. It’s healthy to be able to say it’s not a good time right now.

Do you remember to actually invite them again or you expect them to come knocking another time?

↑ mizle10 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 6:47 am

amother Rainbow wrote:

To expand on this- I totally understand that you simply weren't educated about and that's okay! We're in this world to learn!

When a child learns that her body and time belong to someone else. She HAS to play with someone that makes her feel uncomfortable then she no longer has faith in her signals when her body tells her that the person she is with is uncomfortable.

I teach, model, and emulate to my children loving anyone, but throwing off their radar systems and forcing them to play with people that make them feel uncomfortable can unfortunately be one of the worst parenting mistakes that people make.

I always encourage her to play with her for a shorter period of time rather than tell her to leave. My idea I actually gave her was to ask to play with her at her house instead so she can leave after an hour without making it uncomfortable. She has done this before.

Sorry but this is such garbage!!

A good example would be if a hug from your uncle makes you feel uncomfortable I wont force you. What on earth does body safety have to do with including other girls??

The dentist is uncomfortable.
Studying for a test is uncomfortable.
Bedtime is uncomfortable.

Guess what? Too bad!

We've gone so far in trying to reduce stigmas and embracing therapy and mental health that we're falling off the other end and losing our focus. We're hearing that setting boundaries is so important!! So if my parents need something from me but I feel like it's hard for me, the right thing to do is say no! What on earth happened to kibud av?? What happened to chessed? What happened to vehavta lreiacha? What happened to teaching good midos?

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 7:26 am

mizle10 wrote:

Because I protect my kids from grooming. Unfortunately you can't even see that. That is so so sad...
You honestly didn't seem to understand the psychology behind it.
Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz has some classes he recommends to teach about it. You can try to get in touch with him- I know a lot of people that took them.
Hatzlacha.

ETA: About the bolded- why don't you teach and model those middos to a child? That's what I do and am BH very successful. You seem to think very badly about other people- thinking that I make boundaries and don't do kibbud av when it's not successful... That's definitely a middah you can work on.
These middos are SO SO SO important: chessed and going beyond your boundaries - I really really hope you learn how to teach these the right way, because forcing a child is not a way that will stick when they are older- it doesn't ingrain it in your child- you need to teach it!!

Forcing these middos so you have a "Show child" and can preach to people on Ima is so sad. Teach- learn how to do that instead!!

↑ flowerpower

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 7:28 am

mizle10 wrote:

Right? I had a kid playing in my house ALL the time. Once my son finally had the courage to go play at his house. The kid was 6. The mom tells my son “I will have to ask him permission if he wants to play with you” I was flabbergasted. Is this how kids are being raised these days?! When kids come to my house I consider my kids feelings but I have them consider the kid standing at the doors as well. I teach my kids to think of others. It goes a long way- well into adulthood. I see adults that could have used some training as a kid but now its too late. They are missing some middos combined with social skills.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 7:40 am

mizle10 wrote:

A good example would be if a hug from your uncle makes you feel uncomfortable I wont force you. What on earth does body safety have to do with including other girls??

The dentist is uncomfortable.
Studying for a test is uncomfortable.
Bedtime is uncomfortable.

Going to the dentist, studying for a test, and bedtime are all things we do because (1) there's an objective need, (2) it's good for us.

Socializing with someone who showed up at random is something we do (1) because they want us to, and (2) it's polite. Which puts it a lot closer to hugging someone you don't want to hug than going to the doctor or doing homework.

I do think going out of your comfort zone a little is good. But you need boundaries somewhere. Picture a kid who's a bit socially off who wants to play with your child all. the. time. At some point you're going to let your kid say "no", right?

↑ mizle10 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 7:49 am

amother Rainbow wrote:

I'm trying to imagine a conversation with my DD not wanting to include another girl that would protect her from grooming. I honestly can't. Please help me out here.

I'm not talking about someone older, male, or unfamiliar. I'm talking about a classmate or neighbour who DD is not particularly in the mood of today. Maybe she's annoying, maybe she's a little nerdy, maybe DD is just not in the mood. It's not the type of day where DD feels like reading in bed, she's already socializing.

I'm not raising a show child. I'm not forcing middos. I practise these middos as well. I'm raising a girl who's sensitive to peoples feelings. A girl who after hearing that someone in her class was upset at her for the silliest thing made sure to call her Sunday morning to ask her of she wanted to go bowling.

↑ mizle10 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 7:51 am

ora_43 wrote:

I'm not saying there's never a time for boundaries. I'm saying make sure your head is on straight. Saying my DD does not need to include other girls who knock on the door because it makes her uncomfortable and therefor susceptible to abuse is ridiculous.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 7:53 am

amother OP wrote:

My daughter may lack some self-confidence (though you'd never guess that in school. Though she's not miss popular, she's a star) and she's too timid to invite your dd over, and it's normal to just knock at age 12 without pre planning...

Practical side now: I think this may be your problem.

If your dd has never invited a girl over, and has never been to her house, then it's going to be harder to try to join in an ongoing thing with the girl and her other friend. She's not mentally in the category of "out of school friend" yet. If the other girls are socially adept and considerate and outgoing, it'll probably go well. But if one or both are also shy, or don't really know her that well, it's tricky.

If your dd can invite a couple girls over and do things with them one on one, dropping in might become easier on both sides.

If she really truly can't bring herself to invite anyone, I'd consider talking to the other moms, if you know them. Maybe if their daughters are more outgoing they can encourage them to invite her.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 8:13 am

mizle10 wrote:

The poster you were responding to wasn't talking about including other girls in general, she was talking about specifically including girls who make your child uncomfortable. And 'listen to your gut' is a pretty important part of avoiding abusive/creepy people in life.

amother

NeonOrange

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 8:17 am

No one mentioned asking the current invited guest for her approval.

My daughter has gone to friends, been invited and other girls drop by. It totally changes the dynamics. Often the "drop-in" starts conversation about people and places that my daughter knows nothing about, can't participate.
Or the drop-in doesn't get along with the third girl.

It's not only about your daughter. It's also about making sure that it's not uncomfortable for the already invited guests.

amother

↑ Rainbow ↓

Mon, Jun 03 2024, 8:25 am

mizle10 wrote:

Just from the way you are phrasing it I see you didn't understand. No problem!
There are plenty of courses you can learn from on how to prevent grooming. I'd only recommend one endorsed by Rabbanim. Hatzlacha