Why does shabbat food have to be traditional ashkenazi food?

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, May 10 2024, 8:18 am

amother Mint wrote:

If I understood your question correctly, it seemed that you were asking if religiously you were tied to a particular type of cuisine for Shabbos. The answer is, as noted above, no. I am as Ashkenaz as they come (although still hoping to discover a tiny bit of Sephardi) and I do have generational ties to typical Ashkenazi foods. However, I cook and enjoy many types of cuisine. My father's grandmother was a storied, admired cook and a master of making do with very little. She once asked him what she should cook for him when he came to visit. His reply? "Herring and potatoes." She had a good laugh out of that and told him that was what poor people ate when she was growing up. Make your own traditions and your children will have wonderful memories of what you serve. Good Shabbos!

Herring and potatoes happen to be my comfort food too!

parsley

Fri, May 10 2024, 8:25 am

amother OP wrote:

I'm a BT who grew up very OOT and didn't grow up with any connection to the traditional ashkenazi food that most of you probably know very well. I knew matzah ball soup and pastrami & rye from a treyf "kosher deli" but had no clue what's a kichel or a kugel or the difference between them.

I find the traditional ashkenazi shabbat food to be bland and boring, and I'd never go out of my way to cook it. I make whatever I want for shabbat and when we have guests, I make whatever I think is popular and that I think will have mass appeal. but you'll never find a kugel or gefilte fish on my table.

I've had discussions with others about this and they think it's important for shabbat food to have traditional ashkenazi food to maintain a link to our heritage. I don't see it that way. I see it that we were stuck in europe as very poor people with limited access to spices and good ingredients and developed a cuisine of mediocre peasant food, and I can embrace my judaism and pass it on to our kids without having to cook and serve that food. what do you think?

If you’re a BT, why can’t you choose your style? I cook Sephardic food that’s full of flavor and don’t serve those things unless we like it. I also get very bored of making the same things, so it works for me. I don’t think there’s a problem here if you’re doing what you want anyway. Everyone holds their heritage very near and dear to them and can be hurtful to hear how their food is bland when it’s what they look forward to each week.

amother

↑ Antiquewhite

Fri, May 10 2024, 8:44 am

This reminds me of a wedding I went to of Sephardic Chasidush. BBTW- I’m Sephardic. I asked so what do you eat on Shabbat? As a joke I said kibbe, Lachmajeen and cholent. They said yes.
We need to remember that up to recently, people were very insular. MOST married (and still do) inside their own community. Their homes were similar with similar cuisines. We tend to cook what we are familiar and know it’s going to come out delicious and most sitting at our table will like it. Meal time is ñ always family time.

My mom and dad told me that marrying outside their own community was considered intermarriage and not looked upon fondly. Although Halachically 100% ok to do so, in their community it just wasn’t done. I’m sure that traditional foods was also influenced by insular thinking.

↑ imaima ↓

Fri, May 10 2024, 11:31 am

parsley wrote:

I hope you realize that BTs have an origin even if they were born frum.

Queen Of Hearts

Fri, May 10 2024, 11:50 am

camp123 wrote:

Not sure why she people saw OP's post as offensive. I think it's an interesting discussion which is actually the point of this site.
On the one hand I think there's something nice about traditional foods bring eaten for Shabbos and being passed down from generation to generation. On the other hand it's nice to eat what you enjoy.
I do a bit of both, but definitely think this is an interesting debate.
It definitely makes life easier when you have your "Shabbos food" that you cook each week. No thinking about menu's and you tend to get used to it so can do it quicker.
OP don't take offence at people who can't understand your post. They just don't want the food they like to be insulted;)

You don't understand why OPs post comes across as offensive?

I find the traditional ashkenazi shabbat food to be bland and boring

I cook traditional Ashkenazi food and I find it to be far from bland. It's all in the seasoning. And I do change up my menu sometimes to keep it fresh and exciting.
Maybe OP doesn't know how to season her food and relies heavily on strong spices such as cumin (which I personally find gross. But I'm not creating a thread demeaning middle eastern cuisine)? But to knock a whole culture of food and then wonder why people are offended...

amother

↑ Pearl ↓

Fri, May 10 2024, 11:54 am

camp123 wrote:

Speaking as one of the people who found it offensive, I'll explain: She called Ashkenazi cuisine "a cuisine of mediocre peasant food."

That not only insults a group of people who created and continue to eat that cuisine, it also disregards the religious significance of the foods, which is the reason the foods became traditional. (After all, if the only reason we make those Shabbos foods is because our grandparents did, and not because of tradition, then why is the Shabbos menu so similar in thousands of households? Did our grandparents all get together in Europe and randomly agree on a mostly standardized Shabbos menu, or might there be more to it?)

For example, OP said we'll never find gefilte fish on her table. That's fine, don't eat it if you don't like it. But to say we developed it because "we were stuck in europe [sic] as very poor people with limited access to spices and good ingredients and developed a cuisine of mediocre peasant food" is not only insulting to an entire community/culture whose food it is, but it denies the religious significance of the foods by saying that we randomly threw food together because it's all we had. We had reasons for it. We would pull the fish meat out of the fish, carefully remove the bones, make a gefilte fish batter with eggs and onions, etc., stuff it back into the skin, and cook it. We did this to avoid removing bones on Shabbos, which is borer. (Today we wrap it in parchment paper and cook it without skin, but it's still the same boneless mixture designed to avoid a melacha.) It's NOT a cuisine of mediocre peasant food created because we lacked spices.

The rest that she wrote was fine, she can like or dislike the food, she can cook whatever she wants to in her own home – but without insulting other people, please.

All she had to do is realize that she offended people, perhaps not understanding that we ascribe religious significance to our foods, and then just go back and delete the line where she said "a cuisine of mediocre peasant food" (and any other insuting terms) from her original post, and the issue would have been dropped.

She doesn't even need to apologize for her insensitivity, just remove the offensive language. Maybe she doesn't realize she can still go back and delete that line?

machsheifa ↓

Fri, May 10 2024, 2:33 pm

Food that is not bland and boring IMO is so far more important than having a link to the Ashkenazi Jews of yesteryear. Ashkenazi Jews are not the only type of Jews.

Even if we would want to have a link to all types of Jews from the past, there are many other ways to create that link. Food is not everything.

There are other ways to accomplish things in life without using food, despite the fact that people in our society rely on food for everything they can possibly want to accomplish. For example, learning history, or following other traditions that aren't food-related.

If it was me though, especially if I have guests coming, I would want to serve food that my guests are familiar with or excited to eat. So what I would do is serve Ashkenazi food that is made in a way that is not bland and boring. There are ways to make challah, fish, soup, chicken, kugel, and cholent that are not bland and boring. (Tri-color Gefilte fish anyone?)

For a short period of time, there was a Kosher restaurant in Philly that was head and shoulders better than any food you could ever eat. The owner was a wealthy real estate mogul, and as a hobby, decided to hire a chef who was considered like #2 at that time. I remember it wasn't Gordon Ramsay, but it was someone definitely in that league.

You know what they served? (Besides steaks etc) Mostly traditional Ashkenazi food. When I ate there, my head literally exploded from how good the food was. Aside from that, I'd also serve non-traditional foods like sushi salad, and tacos.

↑ machsheifa

Fri, May 10 2024, 2:38 pm

imaima wrote:

When I was younger and just started to cook on the regular basis, I had the same questions as you! So I don’t think you are off.
I didn’t get why I shop fancy cheeses and avocados for weekdays and potatoes and onions for shabbos?
Why do I eat like a modern person on weekdays but like a shtetl dweller on the holiest day of the week when I am supposed to prepare „the best“ foods?

This question didn’t disturb me SO MUCH but I did notice the contradiction. Most people mix and match of course, but some people really stick to tradition (only!) so in the end we may sit in a very wealthy house, the table is full of expensive silverware and there is just chrain and beet salad and challah crumbs to eat. The clash between the affluence of the household and simplicity of food on the most important day of the week is jarring.

Well said!

amother

↑ Cornsilk ↓

Fri, May 10 2024, 3:04 pm

machsheifa wrote:

This is all well and good.
But in my house, if I try to change it up, even a little bit, my kids won't eat it. They will ask "what are these green things floating in the soup?" Even worse, when the soup itself is green or anything other than golden chicken soup.

I do supplement my menu with some newer salads and foods, but I won't take out the basic traditional foods because my kids associate those with Shabbos.

Lehavdil, other cultures and religions also have their traditional foods for their holidays. Food is not everything, but it's a powerful way to connect people with their roots and convictions. Many people who have l"a left yiddishkeit still like to come back to the old neighborhood to eat at heimish eateries for that nostalgic taste of their youth.
So while food is not everything, it plays a pretty big role in almost all aspects of life, since we all have to eat.
And, after all, this thread is about food.

amother

Royalblue ↓

Sun, May 12 2024, 9:19 pm

Quote:

mediocre peasant food

I know im late to this thread but I am personally so offended by this post
I love ashkenazy food. I like my gefilte fish my challah my chulent, kreplach, kishka…. Its so offensive to call it mediocre peasant food. Who do you think you are ? Did your mother never teach you “if you have nothing nice to say don’t say anything “
You don’t want to eat my food don’t but don’t put it down. At least have the decency to do it behind our back than to our face.