Why does shabbat food have to be traditional ashkenazi food?

↑ 44now ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:11 pm

amother OP wrote:

explain the nut cake on shimini atzeret. I'm familiar with the stuffed cabbage for simchat torah, but that's not so ubiquitous

I guess the latter two are so obvious that I didn't think to mention Wink

Nuts are traditionally not eaten throughout Elul and Tishre because egoz has the same gematriah as chet - sin. On Shemini Atzeres we eat nuts to show we're already free of sin.

Last edited by 44now on Thu, May 09 2024, 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ patzer ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:12 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Most of the "traditional Ashkenazi foods" have a deeper meaning beyond just that they cooked what was available I Europe.

Gefilte fish was born out of the need to avoid bones and the issur of borer. Kugel comes from the word ugal which means round (even though we all make kugels in 9x13, traditionally they were round). It has to do with the cycle of life, similar to the reason a mourner eats an egg. Eggs with onion, and lukshin kugel also have some symbolism.

Yes!
Eggs are eaten as a symbol of mourning, since Moshe Rabeinu died on Shabbos.
Onion is as a remembrance of the "mahn" that the Jews are in the desert, since the "mahn" didn't have the taste of onions.

amother

↑ Peach ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:17 pm

Amarante wrote:

It was literally in a large fish which had bones.

And Ashkenazi cuisine is really very influenced by Eastern European foods. Many of the foods are quite similar and so I don’t think there is a mystical reason.

Stuffed birds including swans were a very typical feast dish and so was adapted in this way. My Bubbe make a cookie that was also made by Martha Stewart’s Polish grandmother. What is a kreplach except a version of a poerogi. Stuffed cabbage versus Halopches.

And since people eat fish with bones I am not understanding how it is somehow a taboo food.

It is definitely not taboo.
If you study the halachos of borer you’ll see why it was easier to eat fish that had the bones removed, but it’s permissible to eat fish with bones in it, and eating fish on Shabbos is in general considered a good thing. Though I wouldn’t want to say eating fish on Shabbos is mandatory (you can leave that for your lor) I would never say it’s taboo.
Many cultures eat stuffed foods similar to pierogi. I’d almost go as far as to say most cultures do. Sephardim also eat a variety of stuffed foods like kubbeh and kibbeh.
We’ve definitely adapted our eating habits to what produce was available in the countries we fled to or were exiled to. Still there are minhagim and dinim we took with us wherever we went.
Non Jews also drink wine and light candles at festive meals but lighting candles and making kiddush Friday night are part of the halachos of Shabbos observance and weren’t copied from anyone. Maybe they copied us? More likely there’s something intrinsically beautiful about wine and candlelight that makes them part of many cultures. That would still make it ridiculous to say we do it because we’re copying others.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:20 pm

amother Antiquewhite wrote:

BTW- I’d love to hear your go to Shabbat Menu

I like to do a shabbat menu of one cuisine or style, like japanese food or persian food or cuban food or whatever. With guests we'll keep it more traditional -- things everyone likes, like Italian or more simile Asian food that people are more familiar with (sushi, edamame, teriyaki chicken) or crowd-pleasing latin food (forms of chicken and rice are always popular).

↑ patzer ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:20 pm

44now wrote:

Nuts are traditionally not eaten throughout Elul and Tishre because egoz has the same gematriah as chet - sin. On Shemini Atzeres we eat nuts to show we're already free of sin.

I've heard it's a bit deeper than that.
When a person does teshuva out of true love for Hashem, her previous sins are now transformed into merits.
Throughout Elul and Tishrei, we avoid nuts, since they have the same gematria as sin. Once we've gone through Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur and Hoshana Rabba, we have transformed ourselves. Since our previous sins are now merits, we eat nuts to show that we're taking them all back.

↑ 44now ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:22 pm

patzer wrote:

Beautiful, thank you for sharing!

amother

↑ Peach ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:24 pm

patzer wrote:

Thank you, I never heard that. I’m going to try to remember that next year. I don’t usually bake nut cake for Shmini Atzeres but this coming year I hope I will. If we’re all neighbors in Yerushalayim I’ll send you some. Of course you’ll have to say it’s you…

Comptroller ↓

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:37 pm

amother OP wrote:

I'm a BT who grew up very OOT and didn't grow up with any connection to the traditional ashkenazi food that most of you probably know very well. I knew matzah ball soup and pastrami & rye from a treyf "kosher deli" but had no clue what's a kichel or a kugel or the difference between them.

I find the traditional ashkenazi shabbat food to be bland and boring, and I'd never go out of my way to cook it. I make whatever I want for shabbat and when we have guests, I make whatever I think is popular and that I think will have mass appeal. but you'll never find a kugel or gefilte fish on my table.

I've had discussions with others about this and they think it's important for shabbat food to have traditional ashkenazi food to maintain a link to our heritage. I don't see it that way. I see it that we were stuck in europe as very poor people with limited access to spices and good ingredients and developed a cuisine of mediocre peasant food, and I can embrace my judaism and pass it on to our kids without having to cook and serve that food. what do you think?

You do you. Food is there to be enjoyed, so no point in cooking things you or your family or your guests won't enjoy.

There is one thing that is a bit tricky: cooking for shabbat noon. The traditional receipes of tchulent, dafina and others are possible solutions to the problem that you have to keep food warm for so long. It works with some ingredients, it does not work for others. So in this sense, I find traditional receipes helpfull. That's also the reason I make kugel, either with potatoes or other veggies. gefilte fish defeats the purpose when it is more expensive than other kinds of fish, is the case in my city, so I never buy it. There are other kinds of fish that I like more and that are cheaper, so no reason to have gefilte fish.

When people here write their shabbat menus, I am suprised that some have almost no fruits and veggies, but mainly "brown food" and lots of mayo. To me, a variety of salads and fruits is essential for the taanug of shabbat.

Cheiny

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:50 pm

amother OP wrote:

So what is stopping you from making and serving whatever foods you prefer? Yes, many in the ashkenazi community regularly make some of the typical traditional foods, and many make other non typical ones as well, but as far as I know, no one goes around criticizing someone who doesn’t… I don’t stick solely to the traditional foods, I change things up and always get compliments from my guests, never heard anyone comment on them “not being on the list” of typical Shabbos foods, nor have I heard anyone discuss this as being an issue in any other setting either…

Last edited by Cheiny on Thu, May 09 2024, 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Crimson

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:51 pm

TLDR.
OP, what you think of traditional Jewish foods are nothing more than foods that were served in europe hundreds of years ago. If you go to China for Shabbos I can guarantee you won’t get the same menu as USA.
That being said, there are some foods that became mainstream because of halachic issues. Like gefilte fish-so there’s no problem of borer and tochen. And something warm/hot to follow Halacha.
Experiment! Find something that is halachically appropriate for the plata or crock pot and have fun!

amother

PlumPink

Thu, May 09 2024, 6:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

Most people who like traditional ashkanazi food like it because to them it is traditional and to them it is homely food!
I grew up traditional ashkanazi, but love a lot of sefardi food and often have asian style too. I make what I enjoy and what I think my guests would enjoy. Some are old traditional dishes and some are new ones. You can always find a newer recipe for an old traditional dish to make it more appealing or make a meal completely different. There is nothing to keep you from making what you want.
Maybe those people who say you need to have matzo ball soup and pastrami sandwich - maybe thats their only connection to Judaism they have left.