spirituality and dd

amother ↓

Mon, Sep 01 2008, 10:27 pm

If someone has an idea or direction for me, I would be so greatful. I am having difficulty directing dd's spiritual growth and development. She is young still, but she seems inclined to do as little as possible, and resist anything that seems "too frum" for her. She is 10, and the oldest of 4 kids. Just a little background, I am BT and have been since before she was born. By BT I guess I mean that I was quite a bit less frum than I am now, but I did grow up with a yeshivah (coed) background and doing the basics at home. I wanted more as I got older, and particularly for my children to grow up with solid frumkeit.

DH has a similar background, but I guess he was pretty much modern orth, from a large family of siblings, growing up and feels comfortable with that. He is comfortable with a lesser degree than I am, ie, if my sleeves were a bit shorter, if some hair was showing, etc. he would be satisfied. But he is supportive of my desire to be where I am. The thing is, dd has been around a mix of different styles, from friends and neighbors, to dh's siblings (I am fine with this-- I will completely accept people for who they are and the level they are at, and teach her to as well). I guess I just assumed that she would automatically model herself after me, but she doesn't seem to. So and so wears shorter sleeves than you do, and I like it that way, she'll tell me. Or, I don't want to wear my skirts as long as yours.

I suppose I feel like this can get more extreme as she gets older. I feel like a complete failure, and I see other girls her age, happily matching their mom's style, and with us it is a constant fight, of why she cannot get shorter sleeves, why she has to wear longer socks, etc. I suppose I also feel like a phoney, like, who am I to pretend to be something that I am not-- I have tried to create a more frum environment for dd ( the next three are boys, so they could not care less about these issues). I didn't want her to grow up like I did with all the pitfalls of the secular world, and I feel like it has followed me anyway.

I guess I feel like I still have an oportunity to influence her, but clearly I don't know how!

shalhevet

Tue, Sep 02 2008, 2:22 am

amother wrote:

The thing is, dd has been around a mix of different styles, from friends and neighbors, to dh's siblings (I am fine with this-- I will completely accept people for who they are and the level they are at, and teach her to as well).

I think this might be the root of the problem. It is a real dilemma - to teach certain standards, but on the other hand to accept others for what they are. If you teach a child that Auntie Anna's derech is fine for her and Uncle Oliver's way is right for him and they are all just great, you are teaching your child that it is fine for them to act that way. You have to teach your child that there is only one way (as in keeping Torah and mitzvos, though of course different people have different minhagim/ piskei halacha etc), but that not everyone knows/ has learnt etc.

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Sep 02 2008, 6:49 am

Thankfully I never had this with my girls to such an extent.

There are a few important things you need to remember. Yes she is your daughter but she is an individual and if you just treat her like Your Daughter, you're setting yourself up for huge battles and possibly failure.

What I did with my girls was we came to compromises with some things (they can wear sweatpants in the house) and outright refusal on other things (every time we're in the States, they ask for jeans and I refuse).

I think if you maintain a certain level at home, and talk WITH your daughter and no AT her, set guidelines together that change from one school year to the next, I think you might not have as big a battle as you may think.

↑ amother

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 12:52 am

Thank you all for taking the time to reply-- all of the responses really hit home, and are issues I had contemplated at one point or another. Shalhevet-- can you elaborate? I suspect that you have hit on a significant issue, and yet, I do not know how to combat this. I feel I do present these differences in the manner you suggested, but the influence in and of itself is pervasive.

Which is basically what Tamiri was saying with regard to insularity. However, it is not an option for us, given our family makeup. These differrent styles are and will be a part of our lives. I guess I just thought that (at a young age, at least) what I did was going to be the primary role model. I suppose I am just surprised and concerned to see that she has developed a preference of her own in this regard, seperate from me. (again, at this age).

We are switching schools, as catonmylap highlighted. To one that is more right leaning. I truly hope that this will have the effect I am seeking, namely, a wholehearted acceptance and embrace of the halachos in the sense of wanting more, not less. Yesha, I plan to use this hashkafic shift to address these issues gradually like you said you have done with your dds.

I guess I am perplexed by the idea that I somehow failed to instill something that I had intended. I wonder if there is something lacking from my own spirituality, or at least, from the way it is visible to dd. Can I do more, not from the perspective of being more machmir, but from the perspective of being more spiritual, of demonstrating a higher level of love for Hashem, and joy in performing the mitzvos. I have to do some soul searching in this regard.

Tzippora

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 7:25 am

I know that I'm going to be disagreed with, but what I suggest is that you at least listen to her concerns. Why is she resisting? Does she have a different, but still acceptable derech that she finds appealing? What is really going on here?

Obviously, she's 10, so the answers you get will not be incredibly sophisticated, but she is also her own person, and will have her own (10 year old) views on things. You will want to take them into account, because if she will feel bitter about the new school, for example, it can really blow up in your face later on. Children are not robots, and just putting them in a frummer place doesn't solve problems with a snap of the fingers.

You will have to watch this develop as she gets older, and it won't be easy, but trying to force a certain amount of frumkeit down her throat when she is clearly unhappy about it is not likely to bear fruit. Or impose an attitude which she disagrees with, for that matter.

This isn't easy for you, clearly. But it is entirely possible for her to have her own (not even necessarily worse!) approach to frumkeit. And while that isn't easy, there's nothing about raising children that is. Since she's only 10, you have much more control, but watch out, or this could strain your relationship with her when she gets older too.

cassandra

Wed, Sep 03 2008, 8:09 am

I'll agree with you Tzipporah.

I would also add that if you give her some breathing room now (when she's young and there is more leeway halachically) then when she gets older she will not feel the same need to rebel. You can try to teach her why dressing the way you do is superior, but not with the intent to convince her to do it. Because if she feels that she has to do what you do because that is what you do she probably will not want to. I would think that ultimately she will come to it on her own if this is what the majority of her peers do. My parents gave me that breathing room growing up, and I had a phase where I wore jeans for a week, I wore short sleeves through 11th grade, but by 12th grade I dressed in a covered knees and elbows manner because this is what I wanted to do, what I felt was the right thing to do.

I know parents have a hard time when their child turns out different but you have to account for that possibility and be very wise about how you respond. Would you rather have a good relationship with a daughter in short sleeves or a strained relationship with a daughter who covers her elbows?

Just another thing: I would not define your daughter's spirituality by the length of her sleeves. There are halachic opinions out there that account for wearing sleeves above the elbow, no socks, etc., and your daughter can be a perfectly frum eved Hashem even if she isn't dressed to your standards. It's scary to think that you will take an all or nothing approach with her. If you are worried about her spirituality focus on her spirituality. I think frum women tend to focus too much on what they wear, and for some girls this can be very detrimental. Teach her about respecting her body, and let her interpret what that means. If she sees tznius as a restriction she will go farther in the other direction when she gets older.