"Shlugging" Kapporos when pregnant

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur

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BeershevaBubby ↓

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 2:36 pm

A couple years ago I finally had the pleasure of 'shlugging kapporos' while pregnant for the very first time (both my daughters are Av babies).

I was maybe 6 weeks along at this point and since we use money for tzedakah, I didn't need to wave 2 hens and a rooster around my head.

But with today's advances in technology, many women head into Yom Kippur knowing the gender of their unborn child. And yes, while I know mistakes can and are made with 'diagnosing' the gender, with an experienced technician and the state of the art machines they have today, these mistakes are going to become rarer.

So, my question is (I know, the real answer is ask your LOR) if a woman knows the gender of her unborn child(ren) and shlugs Kapporos with chickens, can she only use the gender appropriate fowl, or does she still have to use 2 hens and a rooster?

flowerpower

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 2:39 pm

I knew each time but even though it wasn't so long ago I don't remember what I did. I think I shlugged for both.

Purplehair ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 7:55 am

Why don't you just use money? This way, there's no problem (or chicken poop!). Very Happy

↑ BeershevaBubby ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:03 am

Purplehair wrote:

Why don't you just use money? This way, there's no problem (or chicken poop!). Very Happy

Well that's what I did. But then again, it's what we use every year. Other people use only the chickens so I was wondering if they knew the gender, could they just use the correct chickens.

↑ Purplehair ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:17 am

I guess that depends on how much you want to notify others that you are expecting and know what you are having. I think the best thing to do, of course, is to ask your LOR (but you already know that!)
I just figured that shlugging kapporos with money is more private and less messy. (Obvious, I guess, that I have never shlugged with a chicken, right?) Also, this way, even with technology advanced the way it is, there isn't any chance of a gender mistake (taking the wrong type of chickens.) It seriously decreases the "oops" factor.

Tamiri ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:19 am

כפרות
מתי נוהגים , איך, מה הסדר ומה הרעיון.. – הלכות הכפרות
ט"ז טבת ה´תשס"ג - הרב שמואל אליהו

א.
נוהגים לעשות כפרות עם תרנגול זכר לכל אחד מבני הבית גדולים וקטנים, ותרנגולת נקבה לכל אחת מבנות הבית.
ולאשה מעוברת לוקחים תרנגולת אחת בשבילה, ועוד תרנגול ותרנגולת לעובר
כשאין ידוע אם הוא זכר או נקבה.
עיין רמ"א תרה. כה"ח שם ס"ק ה

So, does the כשאין mean that if she *does* know, she takes just that gender? The whole thing is strange to me since we come into this world blank slates, free of sin. Also, in other areas (a woman who miscarries because of harm done to her) an ubar isn't even considered a being!

Last edited by Tamiri on Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ BeershevaBubby ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:19 am

I was told that often the chickens are put into a crate or box for shlugging so it's difficult to tell.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:22 am

Hmm, all in one crate?

↑ Tamiri ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:28 am

Tamiri wrote:

So, why would you need to do kapparot for the fetus. Does anyone know?

↑ Purplehair ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:29 am

I guess it depends on where you shlug. My sis told me that her son's chicken got lose, and then sat on her daughter's head and pulled at her hair. Something tells me it wasn't crated at the time. Very Happy

↑ BeershevaBubby ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:43 am

Tamiri wrote:

So, why would you need to do kapparot for the fetus. Does anyone know?

I was told it's just in case the mother did an Aveira that could reach the fetus (I.e. eat treif), the fetus needs to do Kapparah too.

↑ Tamiri

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:44 am

What do you think Rav Eliyahu means?

↑ BeershevaBubby ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:47 am

Well... I suppose he means that if you know what you're having, you can do that gender... the fact that he specifies in a case where one does not know if it is a boy or a girl... it implies if one does know, one only needs the one extra chicken and not two.

↑ Purplehair ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:53 am

Sounds logical to me. So, how many chickens will you be shlugging with IY"H? Wink

Tehilla

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:54 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

So, why would you need to do kapparot for the fetus. Does anyone know?

I was told it's just in case the mother did an Aveira that could reach the fetus (I.e. eat treif), the fetus needs to do Kapparah too.

this is what I was told also.

↑ BeershevaBubby ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:58 am

Purplehair wrote:

Sounds logical to me. So, how many chickens will you be shlugging with IY"H? Wink

We don't shlug with chickens Smile

hadasa ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:00 am

I shlugged with three chickens in a cardboard box. My husband brought them home for me. Noone knew how many he was carrying in the box.

GAMZu ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:23 am

I shlugged with 2 chickens and a rooster. Held 2 chickens with one hand and the rooster with the other. shock

DH helped me position them all. LOL

That was 5 years ago. Since then we began doing with money because of the horrible way the chickens are treated. Crying

↑ GAMZu

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 9:27 am

Although I wonder why there is a need to have 2 chickens, since one chicken can cover several women and one rooster, several men. The way they used to do it in the shtetl. The rov would swing it over a crowd of people. So why not just take one chicken and one rooster?

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 11:11 am

It's preferable to have one for each individual.

How many chickens does a woman who's pregnant with triplets need? Or, like with the gender, is the US diagnosis just not taken into account?

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