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Ima_Shelli
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 Tue, May 30 2023, 6:56 pm
| amother Peach wrote: | I'm glad at least that you understand that this is how Hashem made men. Unfortunately, many women don't want to admit it.
Numerous women are reluctant to acknowledge this fact about men, and instead, they persist in criticizing Daas Torah.
These women prefer to shame Daas Torah rather than acknowledging this reality.
I'm so glad also that you understand that this is NOT a negative thing about men. Hashem created them this way for a reason. |
Who here is criticizing daas Torah?
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Ima_Shelli
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Tue, May 30 2023, 6:57 pm
| Ima_Shelli wrote: | | Who here is criticizing daas Torah? |
I mean don’t name names of course! I’m just saying I wouldn’t have asked a shailah in OP’s situation
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 6:58 pm
| Ima_Shelli wrote: | | Who here is criticizing daas Torah? |
Many women asserted on this thread that men impose unreasonable restrictions on women and hinder women from "living their lives" as a result.
It's an incorrect view
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:05 pm
| amother Poinsettia wrote: | | I hated that story so much. Why do women always need to sacrifice the things they love because men said so? |
THIS is the kind of viewpoint that I mean when I say that there are women who simply don't understand how it works.
It's not about "sacrificing things because men said so"
This post completely ignores the struggles that Hashem created men to have.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:07 pm
I think the difference in pictures and videos today is that most women are subconsciously flaunting their beauty, being more showy and less sensitive to their viewers in general.
Also, the type of videos would be me speaking passionately, which is of course ok to do, and isn’t untznius. However, a man watching me do that can definitely get pleasure.
The question is, am I responsible for that? Can I just be me and warn them off? Is that enough.
And it’s unclear. In my situation.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:11 pm
| amother Peach wrote: | THIS is the kind of viewpoint that I mean when I say that there are women who simply don't understand how it works.
It's not about "sacrificing things because men said so"
This post completely ignores the struggles that Hashem created men to have. |
I really think that some women aren’t fully aware of how many men work.
That’s the only way I can understand their extreme opposition to this sensitive issue.
Honestly, the way DH’s rebbe said it to me was “do you know if you post videos of yourself you’ll have men dreaming about you at night? Do you want that?” And it didn’t shock me. I know that’s happening out there. Men watching young ladies talking and getting some sort of pleasure. Which is just not ok.
I realize now that it doesn’t make the men creepy. It makes them human.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:11 pm
| amother Peach wrote: | THIS is the kind of viewpoint that I mean when I say that there are women who simply don't understand how it works.
It's not about "sacrificing things because men said so"
This post completely ignores the struggles that Hashem created men to have. |
We don't dress tznius *because* of men. We do it, because Hashem commanded us to.
(BTW, I hated that story, too. It was not uplifting or inspirational. It sounded more like she wrote it because she never really fully accepted giving up her dream and needed validation to not be bitter or upset about it.)
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Ima_Shelli
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:19 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I really think that some women aren’t fully aware of how many men work.
That’s the only way I can understand their extreme opposition to this sensitive issue.
Honestly, the way DH’s rebbe said it to me was “do you know if you post videos of yourself you’ll have men dreaming about you at night? Do you want that?” And it didn’t shock me. I know that’s happening out there. Men watching young ladies talking and getting some sort of pleasure. Which is just not ok.
I realize now that it doesn’t make the men creepy. It makes them human. |
I don’t think that everyone takes this view of men. I just don’t think that they are animalistic creatures who are not in control of themselves. I really don’t think that everyone thinks so. I mean to some extent we expect them to have some control- otherwise how could you leave the house? Pass men on the street? Go to a male doctor? But I digress.
If you agree with this view, then accept it. I’m just saying that there are other views out there and I happen to agree with them. But if you are convinced that a video of you talking in a powerful way will possibly keep creepy/ human men awake at night, then kol hakavod, do what you, your Rav, your husband etc are telling you. I just don’t think it’s the only view on the matter, but kol hakavod if you accept this hashkafah and stick with it.
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scintilla
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:26 pm
| write on wrote: | I haven't posted on Imamother in years, but I just came on for a minute and saw this post and I feel like I have to comment because it is such an important topic.
Riva Pomerantz here, and I, too, went to my Rav to ask him about posting videos and pictures of myself on social media and even on my websites. My Rav, whom I highly respect, told me only to show pictures of myself where the audience would be exclusively female. Given the fact that the social media algorithms give much more weight to posts with pictures and videos, I went back to my Rav a little while later and asked (chutzpah'dik me!) whether there was a "kulah" I could take advantage of to show my picture. My Rav, who has a quick wit, said, "Sure! I'll give you a kulah! You'll have more hatzlacha and siyata di'Shmaya doing less work--ie. by not having to post videos and pictures of yourself on social media!" :-)
This was a few years back. In the three years since, I have built and launched three businesses and I wouldn't say that it's been magical nissim, but b"H a "slow and steady wins the race" type of hatzlacha.
But recently, I re-explored the p'sak because I just launched a new platform, a much bigger business than ever before, and I found myself REALLY teetering on caving in. After all, a "real" business demands a "real-world" business plan which would seem to include all the usual, tried-and-true techniques--ie. showing my picture and videos. It didn't help things when I recently met with a big influencer where the conversation turned to a very candid look at the advantages of showing my picture and I really felt myself slipping. I started rationalizing things, exploring the idea of maybe talking the whole thing over with a different Rav... you get the (women-only!) picture 😄.
And then something happened that really gave me pause: a certain well-respected Torah teacher posted a picture of herself on social media showing her hair in a way that was conspicuously downgraded. I am not judging this woman, and I have no idea if social media is what brought about her change, but it would seem that the pressure, the competition, the desire to look better, younger, and more perfect are formidable forces. I do not know if I trust myself to play the game which is, I would imagine, playing with fire in a certain sense.
I get stories from readers all over the world every single day and am in constant contact with professionals from all fields for the books and articles I write. I am hearing from so many people about the devastating effects of social media on women's self-esteem, parenting, and marriages. I know that the culture is pervasive and there is significant cognitive dissonance which keeps us from wanting to face the truth. I also know that I'm not qualified to weigh in on it, having never entered the nisayon myself (I don't even own a smartphone!), so I may be missing an important angle here, but I do think it's worth thinking about.
Finally, I remind myself--constantly!--that hatzlacha, which is just a more elegant way of saying "making lots of money" 😁, is not linear. It's not an A+B=C proposition. No one can point to the Instagram likes and follow the trail directly to the bank, especially because you only get to play one side; you can't know if you would have made or lost a sale if you hadn't shown your picture or video. Morah, Rebbitzen Ausband, zt"l, used to tell us in Yavne Seminary, "Never make the mistake of thinking that the money that comes into your bank account has anything to do with the work you do." We just have to trust that our Divine CEO will send us the hatzlacha and bracha that's best for us and I, personally, don't want to compromise my values in the process.
As an aside, I find it bizarre and frankly insulting to read about the "poor women hiding their faces" backlash--championed not by the women who have made this choice by choosing the Rav who has advised them in this way, but by others who have decided for them that it is unacceptable! The premise is just laughable at best; patronizing and egregious at worst. For people like me, it comes down to a very simple, very straightforward fact: my Rav, who I highly respect, told me not to do it. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. He also told me I can eat in the pot I thought I had treifed up. It isn't repression or oppression or suppression. In fact, I write words that go out to 100,000 readers a week so I doubt anyone could really call me "erased"! Bottom line: There should be no place for politicizing da'as Torah and certainly no dispensation for casting aspersions on the p'sakim received by others (both those that are more meikil and those that are more machmir), even if your own Rav says something different.
Good luck, OP! 💗💓💓 |
I've always liked your writing and respected you as an author, and now I respect you even more. Thank you for sharing this realness and being an example of staying true to your beliefs!
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DreamerForever
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:37 pm
| amother Slateblue wrote: | OP, please look up the word "perverted" in the dictionary. It does not mean "aroused by any woman who is not his wife." That's entirely normal if frowned on by our religion. As a PP said, calling all men perverts because they are aroused by women is demeaning. Perverted is when a person gets
sickshual gratification from peculiar or taboo subjects or acts, such as children, animals, inanimate objects, waste body fluids, unwilling partners, mating in front of an audience and so on. Men are wired to be aroused by normal women and even by the thought of women. That's not perversion; that's called having a normal active libido. Women have them too, though usually to a lesser extent than men. Not many women go off in orgiastic raptures watching the male announcers on the six o'clock news, but probably some do. |
So well said.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 7:54 pm
| write on wrote: | I haven't posted on Imamother in years, but I just came on for a minute and saw this post and I feel like I have to comment because it is such an important topic.
Riva Pomerantz here, and I, too, went to my Rav to ask him about posting videos and pictures of myself on social media and even on my websites. My Rav, whom I highly respect, told me only to show pictures of myself where the audience would be exclusively female. Given the fact that the social media algorithms give much more weight to posts with pictures and videos, I went back to my Rav a little while later and asked (chutzpah'dik me!) whether there was a "kulah" I could take advantage of to show my picture. My Rav, who has a quick wit, said, "Sure! I'll give you a kulah! You'll have more hatzlacha and siyata di'Shmaya doing less work--ie. by not having to post videos and pictures of yourself on social media!" :-)
This was a few years back. In the three years since, I have built and launched three businesses and I wouldn't say that it's been magical nissim, but b"H a "slow and steady wins the race" type of hatzlacha.
But recently, I re-explored the p'sak because I just launched a new platform, a much bigger business than ever before, and I found myself REALLY teetering on caving in. After all, a "real" business demands a "real-world" business plan which would seem to include all the usual, tried-and-true techniques--ie. showing my picture and videos. It didn't help things when I recently met with a big influencer where the conversation turned to a very candid look at the advantages of showing my picture and I really felt myself slipping. I started rationalizing things, exploring the idea of maybe talking the whole thing over with a different Rav... you get the (women-only!) picture 😄.
And then something happened that really gave me pause: a certain well-respected Torah teacher posted a picture of herself on social media showing her hair in a way that was conspicuously downgraded. I am not judging this woman, and I have no idea if social media is what brought about her change, but it would seem that the pressure, the competition, the desire to look better, younger, and more perfect are formidable forces. I do not know if I trust myself to play the game which is, I would imagine, playing with fire in a certain sense.
I get stories from readers all over the world every single day and am in constant contact with professionals from all fields for the books and articles I write. I am hearing from so many people about the devastating effects of social media on women's self-esteem, parenting, and marriages. I know that the culture is pervasive and there is significant cognitive dissonance which keeps us from wanting to face the truth. I also know that I'm not qualified to weigh in on it, having never entered the nisayon myself (I don't even own a smartphone!), so I may be missing an important angle here, but I do think it's worth thinking about.
Finally, I remind myself--constantly!--that hatzlacha, which is just a more elegant way of saying "making lots of money" 😁, is not linear. It's not an A+B=C proposition. No one can point to the Instagram likes and follow the trail directly to the bank, especially because you only get to play one side; you can't know if you would have made or lost a sale if you hadn't shown your picture or video. Morah, Rebbitzen Ausband, zt"l, used to tell us in Yavne Seminary, "Never make the mistake of thinking that the money that comes into your bank account has anything to do with the work you do." We just have to trust that our Divine CEO will send us the hatzlacha and bracha that's best for us and I, personally, don't want to compromise my values in the process.
As an aside, I find it bizarre and frankly insulting to read about the "poor women hiding their faces" backlash--championed not by the women who have made this choice by choosing the Rav who has advised them in this way, but by others who have decided for them that it is unacceptable! The premise is just laughable at best; patronizing and egregious at worst. For people like me, it comes down to a very simple, very straightforward fact: my Rav, who I highly respect, told me not to do it. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. He also told me I can eat in the pot I thought I had treifed up. It isn't repression or oppression or suppression. In fact, I write words that go out to 100,000 readers a week so I doubt anyone could really call me "erased"! Bottom line: There should be no place for politicizing da'as Torah and certainly no dispensation for casting aspersions on the p'sakim received by others (both those that are more meikil and those that are more machmir), even if your own Rav says something different.
Good luck, OP! 💗💓💓 |
This was so beautiful! I’m feeling kind of lucky that we have you on here ..actually slightly starstruck 
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Cressel
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:05 pm
| amother Banana wrote: | We don't dress tznius *because* of men. We do it, because Hashem commanded us to.
(BTW, I hated that story, too. It was not uplifting or inspirational. It sounded more like she wrote it because she never really fully accepted giving up her dream and needed validation to not be bitter or upset about it.) |
And why do you think Hashem commanded us to?
Are you in denial of how Hashem created men?
again, this does NOT mean something negative about men. Hashem had much purpose in creating them this way.
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DreamerForever
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:10 pm
| write on wrote: | I haven't posted on Imamother in years, but I just came on for a minute and saw this post and I feel like I have to comment because it is such an important topic.
Riva Pomerantz here, and I, too, went to my Rav to ask him about posting videos and pictures of myself on social media and even on my websites. My Rav, whom I highly respect, told me only to show pictures of myself where the audience would be exclusively female. Given the fact that the social media algorithms give much more weight to posts with pictures and videos, I went back to my Rav a little while later and asked (chutzpah'dik me!) whether there was a "kulah" I could take advantage of to show my picture. My Rav, who has a quick wit, said, "Sure! I'll give you a kulah! You'll have more hatzlacha and siyata di'Shmaya doing less work--ie. by not having to post videos and pictures of yourself on social media!" :-)
This was a few years back. In the three years since, I have built and launched three businesses and I wouldn't say that it's been magical nissim, but b"H a "slow and steady wins the race" type of hatzlacha.
But recently, I re-explored the p'sak because I just launched a new platform, a much bigger business than ever before, and I found myself REALLY teetering on caving in. After all, a "real" business demands a "real-world" business plan which would seem to include all the usual, tried-and-true techniques--ie. showing my picture and videos. It didn't help things when I recently met with a big influencer where the conversation turned to a very candid look at the advantages of showing my picture and I really felt myself slipping. I started rationalizing things, exploring the idea of maybe talking the whole thing over with a different Rav... you get the (women-only!) picture 😄.
And then something happened that really gave me pause: a certain well-respected Torah teacher posted a picture of herself on social media showing her hair in a way that was conspicuously downgraded. I am not judging this woman, and I have no idea if social media is what brought about her change, but it would seem that the pressure, the competition, the desire to look better, younger, and more perfect are formidable forces. I do not know if I trust myself to play the game which is, I would imagine, playing with fire in a certain sense.
I get stories from readers all over the world every single day and am in constant contact with professionals from all fields for the books and articles I write. I am hearing from so many people about the devastating effects of social media on women's self-esteem, parenting, and marriages. I know that the culture is pervasive and there is significant cognitive dissonance which keeps us from wanting to face the truth. I also know that I'm not qualified to weigh in on it, having never entered the nisayon myself (I don't even own a smartphone!), so I may be missing an important angle here, but I do think it's worth thinking about.
Finally, I remind myself--constantly!--that hatzlacha, which is just a more elegant way of saying "making lots of money" 😁, is not linear. It's not an A+B=C proposition. No one can point to the Instagram likes and follow the trail directly to the bank, especially because you only get to play one side; you can't know if you would have made or lost a sale if you hadn't shown your picture or video. Morah, Rebbitzen Ausband, zt"l, used to tell us in Yavne Seminary, "Never make the mistake of thinking that the money that comes into your bank account has anything to do with the work you do." We just have to trust that our Divine CEO will send us the hatzlacha and bracha that's best for us and I, personally, don't want to compromise my values in the process.
As an aside, I find it bizarre and frankly insulting to read about the "poor women hiding their faces" backlash--championed not by the women who have made this choice by choosing the Rav who has advised them in this way, but by others who have decided for them that it is unacceptable! The premise is just laughable at best; patronizing and egregious at worst. For people like me, it comes down to a very simple, very straightforward fact: my Rav, who I highly respect, told me not to do it. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. He also told me I can eat in the pot I thought I had treifed up. It isn't repression or oppression or suppression. In fact, I write words that go out to 100,000 readers a week so I doubt anyone could really call me "erased"! Bottom line: There should be no place for politicizing da'as Torah and certainly no dispensation for casting aspersions on the p'sakim received by others (both those that are more meikil and those that are more machmir), even if your own Rav says something different.
Good luck, OP! 💗💓💓 |
What a brilliant post. And I just love the last paragraph.
More of this conviction is needed on here!
...will you stay  ?
#starstruck too
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:15 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I really think that some women aren’t fully aware of how many men work.
That’s the only way I can understand their extreme opposition to this sensitive issue.
Honestly, the way DH’s rebbe said it to me was “do you know if you post videos of yourself you’ll have men dreaming about you at night? Do you want that?” And it didn’t shock me. I know that’s happening out there. Men watching young ladies talking and getting some sort of pleasure. Which is just not ok.
I realize now that it doesn’t make the men creepy. It makes them human. |
Respectfully OP, I think you have a very animalistic view of men. You are probably coming from a sheltered background. I think it’s a bit odd to think about men dreaming about you, it’s a pretty crass thought, and demeaning to men. There are women who are almost n*ked on instagram. I don’t think most men are getting turned on from a modestly dressed woman.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:18 pm
| Cressel68 wrote: | And why do you think Hashem commanded us to?
Are you in denial of how Hashem created men?
again, this does NOT mean something negative about men. Hashem had much purpose in creating them this way. |
First of all, Hashem commanded both genders to be modest. Men are obligated too, even if women don't have the strong taivos that men do. If it was purely about biological urges and not creating temptation hatznea lechas would only apply to women and not men.
No, I do not dress tzniusly solely so a man doesn't stumble. If that were the case, I'd wear potato sack clothing and cover my face, not just cover knees elbows collarbones etc. Or I just wouldn't leave my home. I follow the guidelines that mainstream rabbanim have interpreted because you need guidelines & consistency to know the exact way to follow the commandment as we do for the rest of Judaism's commandments. We don't need to be extreme because we worry about men's taivos. Remember that article in Ami or Mishpacha years ago about burka ladies who believed you should never leave their home, not even for medical needs, and wore like 7 layers of clothing or such?
And, yes, that story clearly showed the narrator was not happy and needed outside validation to feel better about her decision that she felt forced to make.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:22 pm
| amother Foxglove wrote: | | Respectfully OP, I think you have a very animalistic view of men. You are probably coming from a sheltered background. I think it’s a bit odd to think about men dreaming about you, it’s a pretty crass thought, and demeaning to men. There are women who are almost n*ked on instagram. I don’t think most men are getting turned on from a modestly dressed woman. |
Sorry, not sheltered at all. I spent my high school years hanging out with guys. I’m far from sheltered.
My view of men is that they are as animalistic as Hashem made them. They are designed to want to look at women and get pleasure from it. It’s a constant struggle for most men.
And yes, there are almost naked women on insta. Some men will look at them. But other men, who don’t want to stoop that low, may go another route that seems less offensive- watching tznius ladies and getting pleasure. It’s real and true and it happens. I know this for a fact.
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:26 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Sorry, not sheltered at all. I spent my high school years hanging out with guys. I’m far from sheltered.
My view of men is that they are as animalistic as Hashem made them. They are designed to want to look at women and get pleasure from it. It’s a constant struggle for most men.
And yes, there are almost naked women on insta. Some men will look at them. But other men, who don’t want to stoop that low, may go another route that seems less offensive- watching tznius ladies and getting pleasure. It’s real and true and it happens. I know this for a fact. |
YES!!! Exactly this! This is precisely how people should see it. I can't understand why women don't understand the truth in this post.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:33 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Sorry, not sheltered at all. I spent my high school years hanging out with guys. I’m far from sheltered.
My view of men is that they are as animalistic as Hashem made them. They are designed to want to look at women and get pleasure from it. It’s a constant struggle for most men.
And yes, there are almost naked women on insta. Some men will look at them. But other men, who don’t want to stoop that low, may go another route that seems less offensive- watching tznius ladies and getting pleasure. It’s real and true and it happens. I know this for a fact. |
I think some women like to view men as animals and convince themselves that men are always getting pleasure from any glimpse of them. Ok, you can think how wish. I think more highly of men, and I hope most people do as well.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:48 pm
| amother OP wrote: | Sorry, not sheltered at all. I spent my high school years hanging out with guys. I’m far from sheltered.
My view of men is that they are as animalistic as Hashem made them. They are designed to want to look at women and get pleasure from it. It’s a constant struggle for most men.
And yes, there are almost naked women on insta. Some men will look at them. But other men, who don’t want to stoop that low, may go another route that seems less offensive- watching tznius ladies and getting pleasure. It’s real and true and it happens. I know this for a fact. |
Perhaps this is valid for teenage boys at the height of their hormones and puberty, so if you're basing this from years back in high school that would explain your viewpoint. (Although teen boys with access to the internet are not going to bother watching frum ladies that look like their mom in any case.) You can't compare the average h*y teen to an adult male.
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amother
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Tue, May 30 2023, 8:58 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I really think that some women aren’t fully aware of how many men work.
That’s the only way I can understand their extreme opposition to this sensitive issue.
Honestly, the way DH’s rebbe said it to me was “do you know if you post videos of yourself you’ll have men dreaming about you at night? Do you want that?” And it didn’t shock me. I know that’s happening out there. Men watching young ladies talking and getting some sort of pleasure. Which is just not ok.
I realize now that it doesn’t make the men creepy. It makes them human. |
I don't really care if men dream about me at night. It's not my problem. All (straight) men, Jews and non-Jews alike, will have thoughts about the women they see. As you said, it doesn't make them creepy, it makes them human. It's their nisayon to deal with as they choose.
I'm not out here stripping on a pole in Times Square. I'm just living my life as a normally dressed woman, and yeah that might include riding a bicycle, playing a musical instrument, or talking in public. If a man is trying to avoid any thoughts of women whatsoever, it's on him to avoid them.
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