Those of you who teach Neviim Rishonim

Toot ↓

Wed, Jun 25 2008, 7:51 pm

I say that Tanakh depicts the lives of real people, and that Jews are human too. The fact that they're human and make mistakes, even very grave mistakes such as killing, means that we can learn from them. If everyone is Jewish history was a malakh and never made mistakes, it would be unrealistic for us to try to be like them. Sometimes we hear about the wonderful things that people did so we emulate them. And sometimes we hear about the not-so-wonderful things that people did so we learn from their mistakes.

The fact that something is written in the Navi does not make it ok (I.e. killing, obviously). There are Malkhei Yisrael who have no place in Olam Ha-bah! But it's still our history, and we need to learn what happened so that we can improve our communities now and for the future.

Does that answer your question?

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 5:11 am

Motek wrote:

How do you explain all the killing that Jews do, of one another? Life seems so cheap, battles take place, thousands of Jews are killed by Jews. There are many shocking attempts at murder and actual murder, by Jews. What do you say?

I'm trying to remember where it says "thousands of Jews are killed by Jews" in Navi.

The only stories I can think of are those who have strayed from Avodat Hashem and turned to idol worship. Then it becomes an obligation to first make them do Teshuvah and then, with Hashem's guidance, they are dealt with.

↑ Toot ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 6:01 am

You're right, it is a sin. But my point is still the same - people sin because they are human, not angels. Those stories are there to teach us a lesson.

I always thinks of the midrash where Moshe convinces Hashem to give the Torah to Am Yisrael instead of the angels, even though we won't be able to keep all of it perfectly. The stories in Navi do, sadly, make the angels' point. But like Yesha pointed out, there stories are not the only ones in Navi, and they show what happens when you don't accept all of Torah as a system and a way of life. If you worship idols, Hashem won't necessarily protect you.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 12:51 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

I'm trying to remember where it says "thousands of Jews are killed by Jews" in Navi.

At the end of Shoftim, after the rape of the pilegesh, 22,000 Jews were killed by the Bnei Binyamin. The next day, an additional 18,000 men were killed. Then 25,100 men of Binyamin are killed.

The numbers are mind-boggling. And to think that the Jewish world went crazy vilifying Boruch Goldstein for killing ARABS and went crazy over Yigal Amir and Rabin (whether Amir killed him or not is another story) and announcing that Jews don't do things like this ...

In Shmuel I there's Shaul saying that whoever eats will be killed and he's quite ready to kill his own son Yonasan who didn't even hear his announcement.

There's Doeg, the Av Beis Din (picture a gadol) who kills 85 kohanim and the entire city of Nov, men, women and children (and animals).

Yoav kills Avner, Dovid's general and Amasa.

There are other examples. This is a sampling.

Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 12:53 pm

Motek wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

I'm trying to remember where it says "thousands of Jews are killed by Jews" in Navi.

At the end of Shoftim, after the rape of the pilegesh, 22,000 Jews were killed by the Bnei Binyamin. The next day, an additional 18,000 men were killed. Then 25,100 men of Binyamin are killed.

This is an important lesson of אין מלך בישראל איש הישר בעיניו יעשה, with lots of sub-lessons that can be learned from that concept.

(I am just giving an example of how you can teach this particular story.)

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 12:54 pm

MorahS wrote:

I appreciate your answering the question (nobody else tried!) but it doesn't satisfy me. If we say that there is yeridas ha'doros and the earlier generations were on a much higher spiritual level than us, how do you explain that we are horrified at the thought of Jews killing Jews nowadays but in the time of the Neviim it was commonplace?

↑ Toot ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 1:25 pm

I think yeridat ha-dorot does not have to be understood as an across-the-board statement about humanity. I think that it would be insulting to say that tzadikim today are "worse" than resha'im of past generations just because they live later in history. The people in Navi who worshipped avoda zara and murdered others were, in my opinion, not on such a high spiritual level.

I also don't assume that the killing that went on then was not horrific. Then again, times were different. How might people feel today about stoning and burning as punishment for not keeping halakha? I think a lot of people today would flinch, while in previous generations it was commonplace.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 1:44 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I felt very disillusioned after learning through the Nevi'im Rishonim.

I've been making my way through and it's shock

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I think that it would be insulting to say that tzadikim today are "worse" than resha'im of past generations just because they live later in history.

Doeg and Achisofel were the gedolim of their time!

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The people in Navi who worshipped avoda zara and murdered others were, in my opinion, not on such a high spiritual level.

Yet we are told that they were on a high spiritual level. After all, they had the Mishkan and Beis Ha'Mikdash, we don't. It was the era of the Prophets!

And avoda zara is another story altogether as the story in the Gemara Sanhedrin 102b illustrates. King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream after the latter had told his talmidim that he was going to teach them about Menashe the next day. Menashe was one of the worst people in Tanach, and Rav Ashi didn't refer to him with respect. In the dream Menashe asked Rav Ashi a Halachic question which he was unable to answer. So Menashe told him the answer and told him that he was entitled to the respect a talmid chacham deserves. Rav Ashi asked him why he was served avoda zara if he was such a great talmid chacham. Menashe answered that had Rav Ashi lived in his generation Rav Ashi would have run to be worship avoda zara.

I'm talking about murder and wars among Jews, not idol worship.

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I also don't assume that the killing that went on then was not horrific.

From the pesukim it sounds ho-hum. Nobody reacts with horror.

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How might people feel today about stoning and burning as punishment for not keeping halakha? I think a lot of people today would flinch, while in previous generations it was commonplace.

First, the fact that people are not in tune with Torah is sad but not comparable, I don't think, with what we're discussing.

Second, it wasn't commonplace. If a beis din executed someone once in 7 years (others say once in 70 years) it was called a "bloody" beis din.

↑ red sea

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 2:07 pm

ETA english to my mess of thoughts as requested unless you werent talking to me but thats ok, my post needed help anyway;

I think maybe there is yeridas hadoros. But its on an overall level of the generations. Not particularly on each specific mitzvah did each generation go down. The vices of society at large in each generation might've been the more frequented aveiros of each generation. Would that make any sense?

(is that clearer?)

Last edited by red sea on Thu, Jun 26 2008, 2:23 pm; edited 2 times in total

↑ Toot ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 2:12 pm

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Doeg and Achisofel were the gedolim of their time!

Is the text explicit about that?

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Yet we are told that they were on a high spiritual level.

Where? By whom?

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After all, they had the Mishkan and Beis Ha'Mikdash, we don't. It was the era of the Prophets!

I agree that Shlomo, who built the Beit Ha-mikdash was (at least at the beginning of his life) on a higher spiritual level, as were the prophets themselves. But I don't think that we can make assumptions about the greater population. The Navi clearly says that they were not great tzadikim, and I have to believe what the text says.

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And avoda zara is another story altogether as the story in the Gemara Sanhedrin 102b illustrates. King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream after the latter had told his talmidim that he was going to teach them about Menashe the next day. Menashe was one of the worst people in Tanach, and Rav Ashi didn't refer to him with respect. In the dream Menashe asked Rav Ashi a Halachic question which he was unable to answer. So Menashe told him the answer and told him that he was entitled to the respect a talmid chacham deserves. Rav Ashi asked him why he was served avoda zara if he was such a great talmid chacham. Menashe answered that had Rav Ashi lived in his generation Rav Ashi would have run to be worship avoda zara.

Again, you asked and I answered about the text itself. That gemara, while very valuable, is not here to teach us pshat in Melakhim.

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I also don't assume that the killing that went on then was not horrific.

From the pesukim it sounds ho-hum. Nobody reacts with horror.

Well, who wrote the book? When? For which audience? These are all questions you have to ask and deal with before discussing what seems "missing" from a text.

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Second, it wasn't commonplace. If a beis din executed someone once in 7 years (others say once in 70 years) it was called a "bloody" beis din.

True, but my point was that our moral sensitivities, for better or for worse (I think for worse) are different from what they were then. The Torah says that the mekoshesh eitzim was to be stoned and nobody protested, so you could say that the batei din in the time of the mishna was more "sensitive" than the dor ha-midbar, and we are even more "sensitive" than they were.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jun 26 2008, 3:00 pm

MorahS wrote:

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Doeg and Achisofel were the gedolim of their time!

Is the text explicit about that?

When we study Tanach, whether Chumash, Neviim or Kesuvim, we look at the text and the meforshim, not the text in isolation. The pasuk describes Doeg as "Abir Ha'Ro'im" which Rashi says means Av Beis Din.

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Where? By whom?

They were closer to Mattan Torah and therefore, were more spiritually elevated, as a nation.

Much later, the Gemara says (Shabbos 112b), "if the earlier ones were like angels, we are like men, and if the earlier ones were like men, we are like donkeys and not like the donkey of R' Chanina ben Dosa and R' Pinchas ben Yair."

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The Navi clearly says that they were not great tzadikim, and I have to believe what the text says.

If you believe the text about Shlomo Ha'Melech, for example, you will have a distorted understanding of who he was and what he did. We need the Oral Torah along with the Written Torah.

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Again, you asked and I answered about the text itself. That gemara, while very valuable, is not here to teach us pshat in Melakhim.

Again, we cannot learn Neviim properly without the Oral Torah.

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Well, who wrote the book? When? For which audience? These are all questions you have to ask and deal with before discussing what seems "missing" from a text.

We are talking about the Prophets here which were written for you and me and all of us. I don't see how that answers my question. Those sound like questions one asks about literature.

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True, but my point was that our moral sensitivities, for better or for worse (I think for worse) are different from what they were then.

true

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The Torah says that the mekoshesh eitzim was to be stoned and nobody protested, so you could say that the batei din in the time of the mishna was more "sensitive" than the dor ha-midbar, and we are even more "sensitive" than they were.

I don't follow that. There was nothing to protest since the Jewish people knew the G-d given law that if a person willfully desecrated the Shabbos after being warned not to, G-d says the person is to be put to death. Nothing about sensitivity here.