Devastating Irreversible Abusive Treatments

↑ skyeblue ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 1:03 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Thank you Sky-Blue for the article on how a Jewish Man was able to transition from being a
homos@xual man to a heteros@xualman - with the help of COUNSELING:

I learned that homes like mine are common among men with homosexual urges.

I discovered that there is insufficient evidence for the claim that homosexuality is genetically or biologically predetermined. Instead I learned that homes like mine are common among men with homosexual urges. I found out that the great founders of psychology – from Freud and Jung up to the 1960s ― had described how the problems in those homes lead to homosexual attraction. I learned that their studies had never been disproved, merely shouted down. Just like people whose fantasy defenses were threatened by my own observations were shouting me down, telling me to disbelieve my own senses and feelings.

I found out that "out and proud" homosexuals still suffered depression, suicide, and substance abuse at rates several times higher than the general population. And that many gay men settle for a lifetime of brief, compulsive, and often anonymous s-xual couplings, marked by elevated rates of physical abuse....

I had to accept that my pain was caused by internal trauma, rather than external prejudice.

I had to accept that healing would require hard work to change my habits and mindset ― and on the way I would have to unearth and relive deeply painful episodes. To restore myself to the community of real men, I would have to relinquish the narcissistic comfort of being "special," ...

As I took counsel with friends in both the gay and Torah worlds, a paradox emerged: those who called themselves liberal-minded humanists asserted that I was like an animal, my essential nature fixed ― and that there was no higher dimension to "fulfilling myself" beyond s-xual abandon. And Torah Judaism ― dismissed by them as primitive ― asserted that I was free to define myself and bond deeply with others through the uniquely human qualities of free will, insight and choice.

One communal organization devoted to helping Jews struggle with homosexual urges provided targeted support with a Jewish orientation that I could not have received elsewhere. They allowed me to express my deepest feelings for the first time in a loving, accepting circle of men, and referred me to counseling professionals who were knowledgeable about homosexuality and Judaism, and shared my therapeutic goals.

Return Vs. Change

People ask, "How did you change your s-xual orientation?" But the language of the question betrays incorrect notions about homosexuality.

I didn't have to "change" anything. The definition of teshuva is returning to one's true self, one's soul. The s-xual attraction I felt to other men was not my true nature; it was an attempt driven by my yetzer hara, my baser self, to satisfy unmet needs, a symptom of missed developmental opportunities and distorted perceptions.

The healing path for men struggling with these attractions focuses on the underlying causes. We build trusting relationships that satisfy our healthy need for male bonding in a non-s-xual way.

The Torah doesn't prohibit sincere, healthy needs. It warns us that these needs can draw us down emotional dead-ends, and guides us towards healthy ways to fulfill them ― and grow through them.

When these needs are met – when men are no longer mysterious, other, unattainable ― the s-xual attraction to men decreases. As I found my own masculine power within me, the need to seek and consume another man's masculinity weakened. And in a pattern typical of this healing path, I found that feeling better about myself as a man led to healthy, normal heterosexual attractions.

You're welcome. I also found it powerful.

There was also a part 2 on Aish.com, where this man answered reader responses. I haven't checked, but it may still be available somewhere online.

If you're interested in reading more about this topic from a Torah perspective, the book The Eye of the Storm by Rabbi Aaron Feldman has a couple of chapters on this issue.

I remember in particular this story from his book.
He tells about a homosexual Jewish man who seeked therapy to change his s-xual orientation. This man wanted to get married, and looked for a wife who would support him and help him. He disclosed his issue while in shidduchim. BH he found the right woman, who was willing and able to help him and marry him despite his issue. They went on to build a Torah family with 7 children.

amother

Brown ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 1:50 am

skyeblue wrote:

And they lived happily ever after?
I’m pretty sure not, and this poor woman had to suffer with a dh who wasn’t attracted to her.

Can you quit the propaganda?
There is not a shred of normal evidence that conversion therapy works. You are just showing your ignorance.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 8:11 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

After the American People caught Dr. Faucci in several Lies to the Public, Americans no longer have the Blind Trust in "experts" that they previously had.

After Americans saw how medical doctors had their licenses threatened for speaking out against danger and ineffectiveness of Covid Vax, Americans eyes were opened that government CONTROLS all experts who are not allowed to THINK FOR THEMSELVES or express THEIR OWN OPINION.

Just like in all Communist Tyrannies, experts must TOE THE SOCIALIST PARTY LINE or lose their license.

Any "Expert" who refuses to say "A man can give birth" loses their license.

Americans no longer trust their PARROTED opinions.

Including that conversion therapy does not work.

If a child, under encouragement from teachers, declares he is trans, that does not mean he is really permanently trans!

amother

↑ Brown ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 9:52 am

#BestBubby wrote:

[Edited]

You just lumped together a lot of unrelated thoughts.

Those who believe that conversion therapy works are actually people who don’t understand how to decipher scientific studies, and don’t know how to think critically.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 10:00 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Are you under the influence of something?

You just lumped together a lot of unrelated thoughts.

Those who believe that conversion therapy works are actually people who don’t understand how to decipher scientific studies, and don’t know how to think critically.

When a person resorts to personal attacks, it is a sign she lost the argument.

You have just proven your ignorance as there is no one method of conversion therapy.

Therefore it is impossible for anyone to make a blanket statement " conversion therapy doesn’t work."

And there are people who wrote that conversion therapy helped them have heteros@ul attraction.
I posted one account on this thread.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 10:04 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Do the "scientists" who made those studies believe a man can give birth?

Then they are not scientists.

They are propagandists

↑ skyeblue ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 10:43 am

skyeblue wrote:

Thank you for clarifying. I followed your link and read the article.

I hear what you're saying. Some of JONAS's methods do seem extreme.

The type of conversion therapy that I was referring to is any counseling or talk therapy or group therapy that helps a person reclaim heterosexuality.

I think part of the confusion is that proponents of homosexuality deliberately lump together severe forms of conversion therapy with any counseling that helps a person reclaim their heterosexuality. They call both of these "conversion therapy." It is a dishonest practice that is clearly done in order to make any such therapy appear violent and unnatural. To quote from your article about JONAS:

"Last month, a bill was introduced in Congress would classify commercial conversion therapy and advertising that claims to change s-xual orientation and gender identity as fraud."

Well that's certainly a jump from JONAS's possibly questionable methods.

It sounds like you are not opposed to counseling that helps someone reclaim their heterosexuality; only to severe methods. So I don't think we really disagree here.

To continue with this, I gotta say that, however strange they may seem, I don't see anything in JONAS's methods worth prohibiting.

Even if they were more severe, and included shock therapy, still I feel that a grown man should be able to avail himself of this treatment.

Considering these people (the gay lobby, the radical gender identity people - yes, I'm lumping them together because they're part of the same trend) are actually CUTTING UP CHILDREN, it's really rich of them to say the treatments utilized by JONAS are extreme or taking advantage of the gay person's vulnerable mental state. What a crock.

Furthermore, upon further thought, this article is clearly a hit piece, on JONAS as well as conversion therapy.

Considering that this is apparently an organization for conversion therapy, the fact that the prosecution was a) able to gather only a handful of witnesses; and b) cited methods that are unusual but not terribly extreme for alternate healing modalities, indicates to me that JONAS was probably not only legitimate but also pretty effective. Which is why they want to stop it, obviously.

↑ chanatron1000 ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 10:52 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

This is exactly what nobody wants to talk about. That autism is medical and treatable, and so is gender dysphoria.

Check out the holistic mother on instagram highlights on gender for a tiny slice of the information out there.

The reason nobody wants to talk about it is because it's not true, and autistic people suffer every time you try to fix them.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 10:52 am

Excellent point Sky-blue.

A CHILD has the right to choose permanent mutilation and infertility.

But an ADULT dies not have the right to choose a therapy that is anti the socialist agenda.

Or to refuse a dangerous vaccine

Leftist = Hypocrite

Leftists, do you want a DICTATORSHIP of experts and you have NO FREEDOM TO DISOBEY???

↑ skyeblue ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 10:55 am

Deleted

Last edited by skyeblue on Thu, Jul 07 2022, 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ chanatron1000 ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 11:00 am

The trans movement couldn't be more different from the gay rights movement. Who needs conversion therapy when you can call a gay person transphobic for being gay?

amother

↑ Brown

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 11:19 am

skyeblue wrote:

Don't see any evidence in your post. Just a triggered rant.
I'm sorry for your liberal closed-mindedness.

I didn’t provide any evidence. Those who want to accept some meager anecdotal evidence as the ultimate confirmation of their beliefs are free to do so.

I was kinda waiting to see if I would get dismissed as a liberal, and it didn’t take long. Btw, I’m not a liberal, just an independent thinker. I see issues with a radical leftist agenda, and a radical pro-right agenda. And they both come from the same place, from a lack of independent thinking.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 11:31 am

I heard from a TOP therapist named Shimon Russell that a percentage of people are really gay, but many many who have gay feelings were actually caused by zxual abuse at a very vulnerable stage. The natural disgust that a man develops for another man sxly is not able to develop when this sort of abuse takes place. Therapy to address this can help a man reclaim his normal feelings of attraction to women. I am NOT talking about people who are actually gay, but this is what I would call "same sx attraction" that occurred due to trauma.

↑ chanatron1000 ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 11:48 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Does he have any research at all to back this up, or is it just his opinion?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 12:09 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

Does he have any research at all to back this up, or is it just his opinion?

Working with hundreds if not thousands of abuse victims over decades.

↑ chanatron1000

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 12:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Working with hundreds if not thousands of abuse victims over decades.

That's actually not a good sample.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 12:26 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

That's actually not a good sample.

It is a fantastic representation of Jewish male sxl abuse victims. I never claimed it was a sample of anything else.

↑ #BestBubby ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 12:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I read this in other places.

I believe other secular experts say that child molestation can cause homis@xuality.

Virtually all agree it can cause pedophilia.

↑ skyeblue ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 1:30 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

FYI, I deleted my post shortly after posting it *and before you posted your reply*, because I felt my post was not 100% true. Specifically, upon reflection I did not think your post was "triggered" nor a "rant." I will post a different reply shortly.

↑ skyeblue ↓

Thu, Jul 07 2022, 1:57 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

This is a story quoted by a respected rabbi who was involved with the couple. Your mocking and conjecture does not change that.

The propaganda is peddled from the left. I don't need to get mired in the details of their dishonest research practices to know that:

1. God has forbidden homosexual practice.

2. From what I've read and heard from multiple sources, most people who consider themselves homosexual are motivated either by trauma (incl. abuse or dysfunctional family dynamics) or peer pressure/social contagion. Their "homosexuality" is curable.

The ones with buried trauma could be helped by therapy. Whether you want to call this cure "conversion therapy" or something else, they can be helped. The fact that anecdotal evidence exists despite widespread suppression of treatments and treatment results, should offer people hope.

3. A minority of people may have inborn homosexual urges. Even for them, homosexual acts are forbidden, because this is what God decreed and how He made His world.

If they cannot get to a place of healing and getting married and building a family, their path through life may be different than standard, but they can still serve Gd. It is a difficult challenge, to be sure, and if God has chosen them for this we should give them honor, and they are definitely honorable before God.
(Rabbi Aaron Feldman speaks about this in his book.)

4. There is clearly a leftist agenda to encourage homosexual ACTS, by claiming they flow out of a core unchangeable homosexual state of BEING.

When they started this propaganda effort 30 or so years ago, most of America regarded homosexual activity with disapproval and disgust. To play on people's feelings, and to legitimize homosexual ACTS, the gay lobby painted homosexuality as something inborn and part of the person's identity. The argument went: If they ARE homosexual, they should be able to ACT homosexually.

They've been quite successful. Nowadays the idea of homosexual acts does not generate the same visceral disgust. In fact, they no longer have to excuse this behavior by claiming that homosexuality is part of their identity. Nowadays, any old schmo can "experiment" with homosexual activity, and feel proud of it.

Now the radical gender ideology movement is taking this a step further.

You are showing YOUR ignorance when you believe this stuff. I don't know what studies you're reading, but much - maybe all - of what passes for science or research these days is delusion and propaganda.

I'll stick to God and Torah sources, and my own sense of what's truth, thank you very much.