how can I discipline my 7 yr old who ignores me?

mandksima ↓

Sat, May 10 2008, 3:55 pm

My DD just turned 7 B"H but I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone and she's really a very short 12-13 year old. I was like her in personality but only in my preteen years. I call her and she ignores my call. She leaves the house and I call after her and she ignores me. I say "come here please, I need to talk with you" and she ignores me. When she does look at me, she gives me a snooty look and says, "I'm leaving" and walks off. She's a bit of a dramaqueen when the situation shouldn't be the slightest bit dramatic.

This is happening at the same time as she has issues with separation anxiety and always wants to be with me. She just switches it on and off depending on her mood. Her need for control and independence is really strong right now and I don't really want to squash the independence as we worked hard to get her to where she is today but she is so rude, I don't know how to approach it. There really is no punishing her, as she is so full of pride, that nothing would faze her. Afterwards, she says she's sorry and she'll try not to do it again but she doesn't really mean it and is just giving me lip service.

She says the most obnoxious things to us as if she is a grownup and we are the children. She has no respect for authority. She really does sound like a preteen but obviously her maturity isn't there yet and I can't treat her like a preteen. Anyone else have a similiar child and found a way to deal with these issues???

BTW, she had MUCH worse issues until pretty recently and B"H she is so much better so even though my complaints now are important, we are so happy she has gotten beyond her previous issues and this is more of regular kid stuff but I guess only for the really strong personalty types. We are annoyed with her behaviour but without telling her, we can't help but be proud of her and her spunk. She is very strong willed and can definitely be a leader one day...

ShiningThrough ↓

Sat, May 10 2008, 4:31 pm

Shavua Tov!
I think you both need to talk to her in a calm moment, like at bedtime, and let her know how her behavior affects other members of the household, and that you'd love to have a good relationship with her but when she brushes you off it pushes you away. Let her know that you appreciate many aspects of her personality, and there are lots of 'okay' ways of expressing herself, but ignoring you is just not happening. And if she does, you will give her 3 counts to respond and take action. If by 3 she still hasn't, then there will be consequences. (For example, curtailing her priveleges, doing extra household chores which need to be finished before she goes somewhere or she won't be going, etc. Just BE SURE that whatever consequence you choose, you'll be able to follow through with it, and FOLLOW THROUGH, every time.) Also be sure to notice her achievements when she does respond to you and cooperates, and give her gratitude and encouragement. You can even buy some cute stickers or something and let her choose one to put on her shirt or something when she's cooperative.

Your post made me wonder a few things, like does your daughter have ADHD? Mine does, and she sounds a lot like yours... very dramatic, creative, actressy, bossy maybe... Also, does she watch stuff on TV or in movies where there are young actresses that are influencing her? My daughter caught a few episodes of Zoey 101 at a neighbor's and I saw a direct connection between her dramatic, aloof behavior and the Hollywood actresses in that show. I spoke to her about how mimicking these TV stars is not in her best interest, Hashem wants her to be herself and it's okay to 'try on' different characteristics but her goal should be bettering herslef and to remember that she's a bat Melech (that princess mentality stuff can work at this age especially) but when it comes to kibud av v'em you expect her to respond and cooperate.

Good luck!

↑ mandksima ↓

Sun, May 11 2008, 2:34 pm

ShiningThrough, thanks for your post. She seems to have worse behavior over Shabbos when she has the most freedom to play. She goes in and out of the house (we're on a yishuv) all day and can't really get back into the listening to the parents mode while she's off playing. I did speak to her and she always says she's sorry (she's serious, she just doesn't realize she's being so disrespectful at the time.) If I could think of a consequence that would really bother her, it would be easier. Tonight, she lost out on storytime because she wouldn't go to bed on time. It upsets her and she hopefully will have a quicker time getting into bed tomorrow. She understands the concept fine but her stubborness and pride get in the way of logic usually. She wants to control her own life so badly that she'll give up any priviledges just to have her own way.

She doesn't have ADHD but has enough other issues that have been diagnosed that explain her behavior. I just need the practical advice of how to go about things with her. She either doesn't understand the difference between her and an authority figure or she just refuses to acknowledge that there is that difference. She has a lot of chutzpa and sometimes talks to us as if she is the parent and we are the kids. Part of me loves her spunk and independence but we of course have to reign it in. She is immature and is surrounded by 4,5, and 6 year olds in her gan and we kept her a second year in gan chova because she needed to catch up in maturity. She's very cunning, smart and sweet. It is hard to mould her middos and at the same time avoid breaking her spirit.

THis problem is small potatoes compared to the issues we've had with her lately so it is annoying and I need to pay attention to it but she is so much better than before. I'm just wondering if anyone else has a DD like this and how they taught her to respect and listen to her parents.

Tamiri

Sun, May 11 2008, 2:42 pm

Could it be that you have been extra lenient with her because of previous issues, and now she's testing the water to see how far she can go, while you are hesitant to discipline her properly because of all she's been through, aka vicious cycle?
To me, this does not sound like typical 7 yo behavior. Think about how her friends act. Maybe she is finally testing her wings, but they need to be clipped to size?
I have a kid whom we "babied" because of many issues, and he has been displaying this type of behavior for a while, though he is much older (14). We called him our tzaddik, supported him, cheered him on and now - he ignores, is not always respectful, feels "put upon' when we request something. So now, we have the hard work of getting him back on track. Much easier with a 7 yo.

ChossidMom ↓

Sun, May 11 2008, 3:13 pm

OP, do you spend some quality time with your daughter every day? According to my parenting teacher (who's really smart and teaches a darn good parenting course) we should be spending 10 minutes alone with each child, every day. They can't know it's their "10 minutes" and it has to be spent doing something they enjoy.

Also, make sure that most of your interactions with her are positive ones. "Do your homework" is a negative one, by the way. The ration of positive to negative is 4:1. If things are getting out of hand - check the ratio. If you can't lower the negative interactions then you have to increase your positive ones. This really works!!!

Make sure you have some physical contact with her every day even if it's only to touch her hand when handing her things.

Make sure to spend 5 minutes daily appreciating her.

These points are very important for the relationship with each child.

Never give a direct order if you know she's not going to listen. Rather, say something like "Time to come in now". BEcause if you give a direct order and she doesn't listen, you MUST punish for that by witholding privileges or something. If you do this enough in the beginning (and make sure your ratio is good) the behavior really does improve.

↑ mandksima ↓

Sun, May 11 2008, 3:32 pm

Tamiri, you are very right to a certain extent. We have had issues with her for years and have handled many aspects of them in different ways depending on her age. The problem is that there are just too many issues and we have to pick our fights. The really important ones like violence has B"H been curtailed and that was really tough. I want her to be the best she can be but it is hard to do everything at once. We are lenient sometimes and we are strict when we really need to be. The hardest thing for us is how to discipine. She is a child who doesn't respond well to punishment but does better with positive reinforcement. It is very exausting as I think punishment is easier (at least it is with my son.) There is only so much strength I have and it is getting less as my pregnancy is progressing. I'm a little afraid she will digress in certain areas after the baby is born when she realizes she will lose a little attention to the baby. I just hope she doesn't revert to the way it was before.

Momof6 - what is this system? I can't buy it without knowing if it would help my particular case. Since therapist have a hard time figuring out what could work with her, I'm not sure if this is right for me.

↑ mandksima ↓

Sun, May 11 2008, 3:43 pm

ChossidMom, I spend a few hours with her a day! My son plays on his own a lot and when they come home from gan, I'm all theirs. Can it be too much attention? Most days are fine, like today was. No rudeness, no tantrums, just my sweet daughter. She didn't get too upset over the lack of storytime as she really understood it was her fault and she was tired anyway. She went to sleep nicely. She tries to manipulate me but I am pretty strict, especially at nighttime.

With your positive vs. negative rational, I'm thinking maybe that is why Shabbos is the hardest? There are too many rules, negatives, set times for her? If I can predict her behavior, then I can almost always stop it before it happens. The problem with Shabbos is that it is long and I run out of energy when I am with them all day. I usually am not able to predict her outbursts then. We never have an uneventful Shabbos.

↑ ChossidMom ↓

Sun, May 11 2008, 4:31 pm

I often have more trouble on Shabbos because the day is less structured than during the week. The kids spend much more time playing outside. I find that when they come in from playing outside they are much more "hefker" than other times. They get wild and unruly and definitely influenced by some of the less than great neighbors outside. I find that they are more chutzpadik after playing outside as well.

Whereas, if I sit down and play a game with them like Taki or Rummikub they are much more "normal". Course I can't play all day.... Motzei Shabbos is my hardest time. They are freshly in from playing outside and also tired. Oy. A real recipe for non cooperation.

flowerpower

Sun, May 11 2008, 4:37 pm

she sounds like a smart kid and knows exactly whats going on and how to work around u. this is already in the chutzpah and respecting territory and you must show her that its not tolerated in the house. I feel that certain things can be let go but these things are my top priority. u can make some sort of positive approach on how to handle it like making a behavior plan with rewards. pick 4 very imp rules likes answering the first time u call her, not answering back...and at the end of the day she gets a (fake)dollar for each time she followed through the whole day. at the end of week or month she can cash it in for privlages like making a sleepover, baking a cake, getting new stationary...

raizy

Wed, May 14 2008, 1:14 am

welcome to the pre pre teen world of 7 yr olds. my dd also has got a mouth the size of who knows what. but on the other hand she helps me and always sweetly says sorry she wont do it again. etc. it drives me mad.... mad...

There was once a girl, who had a curl right up by her forhead. when she was good, she was very, very good, and when she was bad she was horrid!!!

↑ mandksima ↓

Wed, May 14 2008, 2:54 am

Raizy, my mother used to say that poem about the little girl to me all the time! I know my DD is a lot like me - it just started a lot earlier with her. My mother always told me I'd get a DD just like me and then I'd know what she went through with me...

Well, she's mostly terrific so I'm pretty lucky. She has her days though. For some reason her birthday scares the wits out of her and she goes crazy with anxiety and has terrible fits all day from things that would never bother her normally. She was really upset that I put chocolate icing on her cake and couldn't get over it because she invisioned vanilla. I have twins so I asked beforehand and got two answers and honestly, choc was much easier. I had one H--lish day with her and then she was back to normal. That day though... I had to lock myself outside so I could remain calm and think about what to do next. She was very violent and even hit my pregnant belly. Sometimes she's not safe to be around and even the therapists don't have answers. She's not a regular 7 year old, she still has delays from prematurity and there are definite issues that still haven't been dealt with although maturity is helping calm them. Mostly.

Sleepless-in-NY - I have been noticing that she ignores me mostly on Shabbos. During the week she's mostly a doll. There is something about the relaxed atmostphere paired with separate rules for the day - she doesn't do well with change and every week it throws her off. I have to come up with a plan to deal with Shabbos for her.

↑ ShiningThrough

Wed, May 14 2008, 3:21 am

Mandksima,
It sounds like you have your hands full, but it also sounds like you have a lot of common sense and patience. B"H! Try to maintain the forsight that your spunky, sweet, difficult little daughter will become a competent, capable person, b'ezrat Hashem. Stay cool, stay structured, stay confident and stay loving, strong and patient. Easier said than done sometimes, I know.

Years ago I saw a sign posted on a friend's kitchen cabinet, I've never forgotten the message:

CHILDREN (and spouses!) NEED THE MOST LOVE WHEN THEY'RE THE LEAST LOVABLE!!

Blessing you (and all of us!) with all that you need to help you be exactly the mother that your daughter needs you to be!

((hugs))

↑ mandksima

Wed, May 14 2008, 11:38 am

ShinigThrough, Thanks for the kind words! I really feel that strong willed children like my DD have the capability to become the future leaders of the world. I don't really want her to become a president or anything but she sure has what it takes. It exausts me but not her. My mother told me I became a doll overnight at 14 after being a teror from age 9 or so. I didn't have any of the medical history my DD has and I was pretty similiar. So the fact that she came so far with hardships plus inherited the genes from me, has made her truly unique and I'm definitely getting my due...