Do you want to know when HS girls are cheating on your tests

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 3:10 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I did not read all replies.

I was the student that studied for hours and hours and was still only able to get the 80%. So yes, sometimes I did cheat. It's definitely wrong to cheat. But please! no, BH no kid snitched on me about cheating. I deserved the 100% for effort, while some got the 100% without needing to study. I tried so so hard! So if after studying for HOURS, I finally sit down with the test paper and I still don't know it, I just felt so so terrible. I couldn't afford a big F !
I want to add that even when cheating, you can't possibly cheat all the answers! So the cheater won't get the 100%.
It would give her away one or two or even three answers.
I'm not encouraging cheating, but if a girl cheats, have rachmanus! Do not tell anyone about it.

OP, if your dd can get a 100% after studying, teach her to fargin other kids to also get a 100.
Just like the brilliant kid gets a 100 without studying, let the F student get the 80 with studying.

School isn’t a communist equality playground where everyone is the same.
I am a very very sensitive teacher and do my best not to fail any student who makes an effort (I am in public school). But 80% is not supposed to be the grade of a a very weak, struggling student! And you speak as if even that 80 is too low, and you were justified in cheating in order to get a higher grade.
Personally I think we need to reform the whole school system, and that kids who are totally non academic should have the option to go into well respected vocational schools. Like in Finland. But that’s not happening in BY any day soon, unfortunately.
In the meantime, high school is supposed to be a professional assessment of your academic skills, not a prize for effort. Not saying we should fail very weak kids who put in effort. But neither should they be getting over 80!!
This is what leads to a cheapening of our diplomas. They aren’t worth anything.

amother

↑ Midnight

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:02 am

DrMom wrote:

This is just silly.

If you don't want to give weaker performers lower scores, then don't give tests!

Or give tests, but don't base the grade on tests only.

Or give tests and use them solely as diagnostic tools to understand where students need extra help.

But giving tests and letting some people cheat to bump up their grades is a waste of time and sends a negative message to everybody who performs well.

Please read what I wrote in context.

What I tried to express was that an adrenaline boost enhances memory. Therefore, in my experience, the memory is sharper in an exam situation.

You best memorize a word, a name, a fact when you really need it. I will give you two examples:

I was asked in an oral exam: "Who is the italian foreign minister?" I did not know. So I was told the name. I will never forget this name.

When living in a student home, I needed a bookshelf, an israeli student was ready to give one away. So I wanted to ask her to give it to me, but I did not know the hebrew word for bookshelf. I tried to explain, and she said "Ah, sifria?" I will never forget that bookshelf is sifria. Usually, you need to forget a word 3 or 4 times, before it really sticks - sifria stuck immediatly.

So I think creating an exam situation has merit, because it boosts adrenaline.
But it has also merit to give the students the information they should learn in this exam situation, rather than letting them starve on their shortcomings.

I very much like the ABA approach (for autistic children), where students get a positive reinforcement, even if they were told the answer. they just have to repeat it. I think we should explore this approach for education in general.

Also, I fundamentally believe that it's unfair that I did not have to put in any effort to get good grades (except paying attention in class), while other students invest hours and hours and still can't make it.

However, I have to add that when I passed exams that really counted (highschool diploma, professional diplomas), it was always in a strictly controlled setting with external examiners, where cheating was made very difficult. I.e. if my classmates copied in school exams, it would not help them for the highschool diploma. Personally, I still would not react like OP's daughter, I would still think "good for him" if someone got through with cheating...

Also, I work in a profession where skill is obvious, so even if someone could cheat to obtain a diploma, it would not help them very much to get work in the field, their shortcomings would become obvious at the first job they do.

↑ DrMom ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:26 am

amother [ Midnight ] wrote:

I read what you wrote the first time. Your arguments are that:

1. People learn better when they are under stress, and exams create stress, so the stuff that cheaters copy off of other students during an exam helps them learn better.

Assuming this "stress helps learning" hypothesis is true (I don't know if this is universally true, but let's say it is), then ramp up stress for those people (example: they can study by making trivial pursuit-type games and competitions to artificially create stress to help them learn).

Letting students cheat is not a solution to this so-called problem.

2. You feel guilty because studying comes naturally to you, and it is not fair to others that you learn so easily.

This is also a ridiculous argument, IMO. I am short and probably cannot play basketball, but I don't expect to play in the NBA. But it's not fair! I should be given stilts and a 30-basket handicap so I can compete. Surely, that is absurd.

Would you want to be operated on by a doctor or defended by a lawyer who was given pity points to pass his MCATs or LSATs?

How much do you want to dumb down society to avoid bruising somebody's ego, and what is the cost of that?

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:41 am

DrMom wrote:

How much do you want to dumb down society to avoid bruising somebody's ego, and what is the cost of that?

I agree with all your points on this thread, Dr Mom.
I do want to address this though. In some communities, a student’s ego and self worth can be largely based on academic performance. And that’s an issue we need to address.
As a teacher, it is exceedingly painful seeing very weak students struggle for years, work hard, and still not understand the material.
That is why I am a big proponent of different types of schools, including vocational. Why shouldn’t a 16 year old who is totally nonacademic not have the option of excelling at hairdressing or fashion school or carpentry? At plumbing or gardening?

Again, I abhor cheating and think teachers should not turn a blind eye. A grade should be an honest grade. A school should stand behind its grades. But at the same time, I think we need to offer our weaker students other alternatives. Not everyone can get a 60 even if they study 24/7. And that’s ok. There should be other respectable things to study during one’s high school years.

Of course, I don’t mean send kids to schools that will be considered second rate. I mean create a society where these schools are given the same resources and respect as the academic schools. I hear there are countries like that.

amother

Daphne ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 7:16 am

I have been loathing entering this thread since it opened. Now that I did, I'm just shocked at everyone's self-righteousness and will to comply with the academic elite.

Some children do not thrive in academic settings at all but they have no choice but to try and pass however way they can if they want to graduate and maybe pursue a career one day, or if they are facing horror for bad grades at home.

I'm 48 years old. Back in my day, we didn't have diagnosis for most learning impediments and learning was much stricter than it was today. I know actively of kids with impediments who had to cheat in order to pass school. I see absolutely nothing morally wrong with it. The goal of school is to pass it. It's a mandatory bad phase of life for everyone. If the goal was to actually learn how to be a good person, with mentchlichkeit and derech eretz, they wouldn't be sitting in classrooms taking tests, cause that's not how you learn that. There wouldn't be bullying in school if that was the goal.

So I think cheating is perfectly fine. I was a professor a few years ago, after practicing for 10 years. My tests were open-book, and about deep comprehension. No need to cheat, because my point is not to force you to remember all this arbitrary stuff (unlike, sadly, in highschool). If my students cheated, the cheating would have been along the lines of talking to eachother during the test. Which I doubt they did, but hey, if I didn't notice them, and they wanted to share answers, good for them. Why? Because as professionals one day, they will indeed solve problems with fellow professionals.

Highschool is supposed to prepare kids for life. Well, in life, they won't have to remember math formulas or historical dates by heart. They can always look them up or ask someone. So why don't we let them do that now?

amother

↑ Daphne

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 7:55 am

DrMom wrote:

Honesty is a policy exclusive to the elite? What a weird attitude for a frum Jew to hold.

Honesty is a Torah value. You don't need to be elite to uphold Torah values.

The academic elite is a system that created life upgrades to be only available through complying with their system. The primary example being: answering what they want you to answer on tests they created. Even for frum schools, most of them follow either a small secular program curriculum, or have integrated the secular way to teach without its curriculum. Graduating highschool is hardly optional if you want to have good opportunities. Forcing literal children to comply with this is forcing them to a life of indoctrination. Yiddishkeit is not about academia. Never was. Our way of learning Torah is not supposed to be academic and "testable". Our children know in their hearts what Torah and Emes is, and they're supposed to learn it at home.

Also, in this whole thing, what about dan lkaf zechus?
How does she know her daughter really saw cheating?

With dan lkaf zechus she should know that maybe the girl who was hiding a paper on her desk was reading a letter? maybe she misheard the girl asking her friend for her answer, when she was asking how she was doing?

This is very easily dismissable and would be a fantastic opportunity to teach OP's kid the greatest lesson: if it's not hurting anyone, and not going against halacha, mind your business.

She will see plenty of things she doesn't like, all through out her life, and if she gets accustomed to running to mommy, and mommy making a scandal, how is she going to cope with anything?

↑ DrMom

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 8:06 am

amother [ Daphne ] wrote:

Expecting correct answers on tests = academic elitism?

1. Nobody says you shouldn't learn Torah at home --- and this is not relevant. My responses would apply to kodesh as well as secular subjects: Cheating on a math test is also contrary to Torah values. Are you really arguing that cheating on a math test is wrong, but cheating on a Chumash test is okay? Scratching Head

2. If you are going to school and the teacher is giving tests, it is not "elitism" for her to grade correct answers as correct and wrong answers as wrong. Objective truth is not elitism.

amother

↑ Dodgerblue ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 8:26 am

amother [ Daphne ] wrote:

1) OK. Let's say some kids need to try and cheat in order to pass. But that's not what we are talking about at all. That isn't the bulk of the discussion here or the examples that were given. We aren't talking about kids who won't get a high school diploma. We are talking about pupils who cheat in order to get 80 instead of 60. How is that OK?

Secondly, let's assume these kids will face horror and beatings if they don't get 100. That's awful. That needs to be addressed. But we can't run life by the demands of abusive parents. There are abusive parents out there who will beat their kids if they don't steal and come home with some stolen goods every day. Does that mean we should turn a blind eye in the stores, and let whoever wants to steal get away with it?

2) I'm older than you. And I've been teaching for decades, mainly high school and also college. Yes, back when I was in high school there was absolutely no special accomodation for any learning disabilities. However, it's not like that at all now. At least not where I teach. There is hyper vigilance in recognizing and accommodating every learning issue.

3) High school isn't all about memorizing (even if it were, that wouldn't be an excuse to cheat). At least in the country where I teach now, the kids have calculators and formula sheets on math tests, for example. They still can cheat. Same thing for all the subjects. Definitely in the sciences and second language learning. Ample opportunity to cheat.

I have several kids now at university learning computer science. And it's possible to cheat there too, although it's as far from high school as possible. So maybe we should just let them cheat, because when they are working at the latest start-up they can just ask team members what to do?

4) And finally - I just don't get the argument that we can cheat if we don't agree with the whole ideology of the academic elite. I totally don't agree with the academic elite, which you can see if you read my previous posts. And yet..... one does not cheat. Just like I don't cheat on my taxes just because I don't agree with government spending. There is a concept of following the law of the land.

watergirl ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 8:33 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Ok this is one of the most backwards threads I have seen here in a long time.

I was a weak student. So weak, I never DREAMED of an 80 on a test. And by the way, an 80 is not a "Big F". So you can study for hours and achieve an 80, you should do that. It's a respectable B. When I was later in college (how I got there, I will get to later), a professor showed us a video of Rick Lavoie called "FAT CITY" and I saw myself in that video and sat there in tears. I was that student who spent hours studying, who knew the material backwards and forwards and then sat at the test and it was gone. Out of my head. I got the lowest grades, failed a lot of things, and also had an identified learning disability and dyslexia. And yet in the 80s and 90s, school had not yet caught up with kids like me. I did not even go to a frum school until mid-high school - I was in public school for the first half and later I went to an MO high school. The first time I ever got an A on a test was I think in 12th grade.

Do you have any idea how good an 80 is? Kids like me never DREAMT about achieving a grade so high!

And yet, it never occurred to me to cheat. I went to Solomon Schechter for elementary school and there we learned about gneiva and how cheating is just that. In high school, we learned that when one cheats, they are oiver gneiva to three (3!) different parts - gneivas daas (between you and your teacher), gneiva of the score from your fellow classmates, and gneiva from Hashem for stealing something that did not belong to you (the higher grade). I am baffled at the cognitive dissonance that some people seem to have where it is ok to cheat. It's assur. Later when I was in a frum high school, we learned the same. Cheating is gneiva. It's very simple. What is missing from the chinuch people are getting that they think it is ok and even a must?

Both high schools I went to - public and MO high school drilled into us how wrong it was to cheat. Both schools had every student sigh an honor code agreement and if anyone cheated on a single test even one time - instant expulsion. And it happened once or twice that I can recall. In public school, you could not be expelled for cheating but the incident went on your permanent record and there were other consequences for the action. Later in college, the consequence for cheating was just as severe. All papers had to be handed in through a program called turnitin.com and it was scanned for any and all kinds of plagiarism. I went to a small frum women's college and yes, girls were thrown out for cheating.

As for "snitching" on cheaters; if one of my kids told me there was a cheating issue in their class, I would 100% speak to the principal, and I have without naming kids names (my kids have never named a cheater but have told me when cheating is serious which BH almost never happens). If kids feel they have to cheat, it means there are greater issues going on in the school and in the homes, depending on who the cheater is. A caring administrator will get to the root of the issue. Does the cheater need more support in school? Are the tests unfair? Is it an issue with the teacher? Why is she not noticing this is happening? Does the parent need to be spoken to in order to learn to change the way they react to a low grade and lessen the pressure their kids feel that brings them to cheat? Etc.

(happy ending - how did I get to college with my horrible grades and learning issue? I went to a massive university in my city where my low low ACT score and my bad transcript was enough. I spent a year there with cheap tuition and took all of the very low classes I needed to get into a better college. I transferred later to a small frum women's college and BH did a lot better there, then dropped out when I got married, and at age 33 I went back to college and finished at age 35).

Last edited by watergirl on Mon, Jan 17 2022, 8:41 am; edited 2 times in total

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 8:52 am

amother [ Daphne ] wrote:

There have been yeshivos from time immemorial. Rivka went to a yeshiva to find out what was happening inside of her. I believe it was Yehuda who was sent ahead to set up schools in mitzrayim before the rest of the family went down. I’m not really sure where you are getting your train of thought from, but it makes no sense to me. Knowledge is most definitely a Jewish concept. Smicha is imparted through learning and testing. Of course you need to know the right answer. Should we just let anyone who wants to decide halacha, without making sure they know the right answers?
In terms of telling, I don’t know that I would tell my daughter to tell her teacher, but it would definitely be a conversation. Cheating and lying and stealing are against the torah, so I’m not sure how you can say someone cheating on a test isn’t against halacha. Whether the daughter should say something or not is a different story. Cheating can and DOES hurt other people.

amother

↑ Outerspace

Mon, Jan 17 2022, 8:56 am

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

Total indifference to cheating is a logical outgrowth of a world view that the purpose of girls' schools is to socialize the girls into frum life, to give them a frum circle of friends and healthy frum enjoyable activities, and also to provide childcare in a frum environment for the parents. If these goals are accomplished, who cares if the girls learn anything or whether their test scores are accurate. Girls have no chiyuv to learn Torah and secular studies have no inherent value. While sometimes secular studies can be necessary for certain jobs, there are plenty of other ways to earn money without a degree.

I totally disagree with this attitude, but it exists. In that framework, tests and cheating are just not important at all.

Actually most of those "justifying" cheating are saying the exact oppisite of this post . They are saying there is so much academic pressure and value for academics that what choice do girls have?

Which is totally not a new excuse.

The Chofetz Chaim in his introduction to Sefas Tomin written way over a hundred years in a total different society also says that liars and cheaters tend to justify their behavior with the excuse of society/my situation is such that what choice is there other than dishonesty?