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-> Judaism
nachlaot
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 Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:01 pm
I'm a BT, and there's some parts of the liturgy I've said a million times and don't know how I could possibly say them any faster by saying them a million more times -- like aleinu, ashrei, shema, etc. It seems like these FFBs still say them WAY quicker than I do. Are you FFBs really pronouncing every word such that you can hear every word yourself?
I just don't get how I could possibly go any faster with the liturgy I know super-well. Sure, I'm a slow train with some of the stuff I'm not so familiar with and don't say as much, and it takes me forever to say the RH amidah. But I feel like I'm zooming through aleinu at the speed of an auctioneer, and I'm just starting the second paragraph and the chazan and everyone else starts chanting veneemar. Or I'm zooming through ashrei and halfway done then all the sudden everyone is chanting hodu al aretz v'shamayim.
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observer
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:02 pm
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I'm FFB and I don't daven fast. I couldn't say the words so fast if I tried. I do know the words by heart, but I can't say them so fast.
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allcuteonesrtak
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:04 pm
| observer wrote: | | I'm FFB and I don't daven fast. I couldn't say the words so fast if I tried. I do know the words by heart, but I can't say them so fast. |
Same!
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ShishKabob
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:05 pm
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I'm FFB, I can't for the life of me understand how some people do it, however, they do. I know some close family members say every single word but it's like lightening. I'm stuck way behind when they're already finished.
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cbsp
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:11 pm
I'm FFB and I have the same question. (at my Shabbos sheva brachos I was still bentching when they were long done with the brachos)
One thing that did help me improve my speed with unfamiliar tefillos (say, the yomim noraim piyutim that are said quietly and not repeated/sung by the shaliach tzibbur) was to get a machzor with a larger font (the interlinear from Artscroll has a larger font for even those piyutim).
But for the tefillos recited daily? I have no idea.
DD is in 6th grade and is having a really hard time now that they added Mincha to the rotation - and it's "only" 8 minutes long. She's so sad that she can't keep up, doesn't understand how everyone else is doing it.
The school suggested that she start with saying the first 3 brachos and the last 3. Then as she develops proficiency and gains speed she should slowly add an additional Bracha at a time.
I think the key is constant repetition of the smaller chunks and adding to it once those are mastered. Attempting a large amount won't work, even with repetition.
I think when a person becomes a BT (especially as an adult) that slow process might be overlooked...
Last edited by cbsp on Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BrisketBoss
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:13 pm
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Great question! I think we've all been wondering this!
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Batsheva1
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:15 pm
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I can't speak English that fast so I have the same question as you.
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Zehava
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:19 pm
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No. We generally don’t say every word.
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observer
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:19 pm
| Zehava wrote: | | No. We generally don’t say every word. |
Who's 'we'?
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BrisketBoss
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:20 pm
| Zehava wrote: | | No. We generally don’t say every word. |
An honest answer and I can believe that this is true for some people.
Is it because you think some words are less important or because you want to keep up, or some other reason?
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Chickensoupprof
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:21 pm
Oh totally!!! When I say achnachnoe koriem the chazzan is already 'We'enemar Hashem hamelech kol ha'arets' I'm like HOW... HOW.... really...
sometimes it's indeed really fast. I don't even say sometimes words correctly I think.
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sky
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:22 pm
My dh can daven out loud and Lein super fast. He enunciates every word clearly.
I have no clue how.
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Zehava
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:25 pm
| BrisketBoss wrote: | An honest answer and I can believe that this is true for some people.
Is it because you think some words are less important or because you want to keep up, or some other reason? |
Pretty sure it’s not a conscious decision more like the result of saying the same things since childhood
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watergirl
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:30 pm
BT with social anxiety here.
This used to really trip me up. I grew up conservative and attended a conservative day schooland went to frum school from high school - college, so I have been reading hebrew since I was 5. Some things I can say quickly (Shemah, bentching, aleinu, etc). Somethings I break my teeth over (tehillim, everything on RH and YK, etc). Reading hebrew just does not come easily to me.
What did I notice? The things I can say quickly tend to be the things I also end up having no kavanah for because I'm not paying enough attention to each and every letter. When I focus to read, I also find myself focusing on the meaning of what I am saying. Ya know... the whole point, right? It used to really discourage me saying tehillim with other women because they would zoom through and I'd still be at the beginning. So... I stopped going to tehillim gatherings and say tehillim on my own which is perfectly fine. We are not men and have no real reason to gather to daven anyway.
What really helped me was letting go and learning not to look around. If I keep my eyes on my siddur, then I can't see what everyone else is doing, right? So I go with that. No more distractions (well, from this issue at least). No more trying to rush and skipping words. More kavanah. Less anxiety. Win-win-win!
Speed is not the ikar here. This is important to remember.
I highly recommend going to buy a very beautiful siddur that makes you want to look in it. Find one with smooth, soft pages that feels good in your hand. Pages should not be bright white and not see through. English helps but only if you want it there. This is a gift for yourself from yourself as a reminder that it is the siddur and the words that matter, not anyone else or what they are doing. And I am not making this up - I did this. How did I get the idea? My husband told me, because he did it also. Someone passed the etiza to him... it's a good eitza.
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BrisketBoss
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:39 pm
| cbsp wrote: | DD is in 6th grade and is having a really hard time now that they added Mincha to the rotation - and it's "only" 8 minutes long. She's so sad that she can't keep up, doesn't understand how everyone else if doing it.
The school suggested that she start with saying the first 3 brachos and the last 3. Then as she develops proficiency and gains speed she should slowly add an additional Bracha at a time.
I think the key is constant repetition of the smaller chunks and adding to it once those are mastered. Attempting a large amount won't work, even with repetition.
I think when a person becomes a BT (especially as an adult) that slow process might be overlooked... |
This is sort of what I did. I went to Hebrew school, then not-frum dayschool, then threw myself into the deep end in college and went to shacharis every day. At first I was super lost and then I became less and less lost. I think that once I figured out which parts we were saying, I focused on getting as far as I could with the first thing, and then...
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jerusalem90
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:47 pm
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I think it's like how if youre singing the alphabet and you get to lmnop and you pronounce it like it's one big letter elemenopee
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zaq
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:48 pm
Speed is not necessarily a meileh. It's not a race.
However: just as some people can play piano or make up their face with lightning speed, some people can daven with lightning speed. We don't all have equally agile mouths. Try listening to, and then singing, "The very model of a modern Major General" by Gilbert and Sullivan. The actors who play the role practice very long and very hard to be able to spit out the tooth-crunching lyrics with the required speed--and they have to know them by heart, too! The average person couldn't do it.
So some people do in fact say every word. And some...well...Let's just say their delivery is sloppy. Swallowed consonants, blurred vowels. They know what they're saying but another human being might not. Good thing they're not davening to another human being.
Yeshiva bocherim in particular seem to think that talking very fast implies that their brain is working even faster. It's not true, but they think they're giving that impression when they employ only halves of words. They don't realize that the only impression they give is that of a person in dire need of speech therapy.
ETA: I am thoroughly perplexed by the "al ken nekaveh" portion after Aleinu. It is simply not humanly possible, even for a person on speed, to finish "al ken nekaveh" in two and a half seconds. How do the eight-year-olds piping Aleinu on the bimah reach "vene'emar" in the time it takes me to inhale once? My guess is they're not saying al ken nekaveh at all but going straight to "vene'emar."
Last edited by zaq on Mon, Oct 25 2021, 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:52 pm
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This is not an FFB thing, its a personality thing. I know plenty of BTs who daven very fast and plenty of FFBs who do not.
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kenz
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:53 pm
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You're all making it seem as if super-speedy davening is the goal. It's not - I daven pretty quickly out of rote. When I am conscious of it I purposely slow myself down and concentrate more. The more kavanah you have, the slower you daven. Speeding through davening is not something to aspire to, though it's obviously better than not davening at all.
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theoneandonly
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Mon, Oct 25 2021, 1:57 pm
I speak English really really quickly also. I've had ppl tell me to slow down because they can't understand me. So the quick davening is just a continuation of the same.
I could do some work on my kavana though...
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