Why are women not counted in a Minyan?

b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 2:20 pm

Was just listening to Rabbi Breitowitz and I wanted to share what he said because I found it really interesting.

The question is why women are not counted in a minyan.

The root of minyan is actually the meraglim. The mitzva of Minyan is to sanctify Hashem, as it says "v'nikdashti B'soch adas b'nei Yisroel." So when you say kedusha and kaddish there needs to be an "eidah".

The meraglim were described as an Eida Ra'ah- an evil congregation. And there were ten in that eida, since two of the meraglim were tzadikim. So it's a gezeiras Shaveh- just as there were 10 meraglim in the eidah, so there needs to be 10 men to sanctify Hashem, and that is the source for ten men in a minyan.

So it turns out that the idea of a minyan is a tikkun for the sin of the spies who did not have emuna in Hashem, so the good eidah fixes the bad eidah.

It could be the reason why women should not count in a minyan is because the only people who can rectify a sin are those who are guilty of the sin. Since women were not guilty in the sin of the meraglim (there were no women spies, and the women did not complain about entering the land, since they had greater emuna) so therefore a woman cannot rectify the sin, and moreover, a women does not NEED the tikkun of minyan, because she was not included in the sin to begin with.

A second idea he gave was from a sociological standpoint. He reflected on the fact that (generally) men hate to ask for directions, while women have no problem with it. Men don't cry or need to confide in others, while women do. (This is obviously a generalization, but has a lot of truth to it.)

This goes back to a very deep idea. According to one way of learning, man was created first and then woman was created as a helpmate. That means that men's essential existence on earth from the very first moment was one of being alone. That means that the primal nature of masculinity is aloneness. Men want to be in control and don't want to need others. Man existed for a short time in a state of aloneness until Hashem said, "it's not good for man to be alone."

But Chava never existed without the context of relationship. Adam came into the word as a lone man. For a lone man, he doesnt want to have to ask others for help, but for a relationship woman, there is no problem- since we are all connected.

So it turns out that minyan is a tikkun for a man in another way. Man wants to be self-sufficient, wants to not need others. Hashem says to him, there are certain things in life that you need to connect to other people. You can't say kaddish or kedusha without a minyan, no matter how smart or righteous you think you are, you have to connect to other people. A woman doesn't need that institution because, by nature, she is already connected to others in the context of relationship.

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Jul 13 2021, 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

PractclyPerfect

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 3:48 pm

Beautiful! Thank you for sharing!

leah233

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 4:02 pm

b.chadash wrote:

It could be the reason why women should not count in a minyan is because the only people who can rectify a sin are those who are guilty of the sin. Since women were not guilty in the sin of the meraglim (there were no women spies, and the women did not complain about entering the land, since they had greater emuna) so therefore a woman cannot rectify the sin, and moreover, a women does not NEED the tikkun of minyan, because she was not included in the sin to begin with.

This does not make sense to me .

Why is any man alive today responsible for what the Meraglim did and need to rectify it?

Also based on that logic people from Shevet Levi should not be eligible for a minyan either.

Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

English3

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 4:11 pm

leah233 wrote:

This make no sense to me at all.

Why is any man alive today responsible for what the Meraglim did and need to rectify it?

We have painful pregnancies and childbirth BC of chava's sin.
Each action that you do good or bad affects the generations to come.
Op beautiful thought.

ETA as for shevet Levi that is a good question, I wonder what the rav has to say about that.

LovesHashem

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 4:19 pm

I like this a lot.

Ema of 5 ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 4:52 pm

The simple answer works for me- women don’t have a chiyuv in tefilla

zaq ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 4:53 pm

leah233 wrote:

Why is any man alive today responsible for what the Meraglim did and need to rectify it?

.

May as well ask why women suffer pain in childbirth and why humankind has to labor to bring forth produce from the earth when it was Adam and Eve who ate of the fruit.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 5:26 pm

leah233 wrote:

Also based on that logic people from Shevet Levi should not be eligible for a minyan either.

You are right. Someone at the shiur actually asked that exact question and he acknowledged that the first answer doesn't work for Levi, but then you have to come onto the second answer.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 5:32 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

The simple answer works for me- women don’t have a chiyuv in tefilla

This is debatable.
We don't have chiyuv in tefilla b'tzibbur, but we surely have a chiyuv of tefilla.

elisheva25

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 5:41 pm

I like this !
Thank you for sharing

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 7:58 pm

I think the second answer he gives explains another deep mystery...why there is no Imafather...

Rubber Ducky

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:05 pm

That was very nice! Thank you for sharing.

Crookshanks ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:11 pm

I really like that! Fascinating

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:11 pm

b.chadash wrote:

This is debatable.
We don't have chiyuv in tefilla b'tzibbur, but we surely have a chiyuv of tefilla.

Yes, but not the same as men.

judyjew ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:13 pm

I don't know... while this explanation does sound very nice, there are so many other things that women can't be counted for or do... why does this specific issue need a different reason?

BrisketBoss

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:17 pm

judyjew wrote:

I don't know... while this explanation does sound very nice, there are so many other things that women can't be counted for or do... why does this specific issue need a different reason?

They all have their own reason AFAIK.

Some people, like Ema of 4, just aren't very curious.

Mothers ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 8:55 pm

Seems to me that Men are being rewarded for the sin of the meraglim (I.e. because they sinned as an eidah - they get to say devarim she’b’kedushah and bring down the Shechina, which is something that Women - who didn’t commit that sin - can never do Sad

↑ judyjew

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 10:11 pm

Well technically we can, as long as there are 10 men along with us Very Happy

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jul 13 2021, 10:47 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

Yes, but not the same as men.

No not the same as men.
But even if a woman were to want to daven the same as a man, she would not be counted in the minyan.

imorethanamother ↓

Wed, Jul 14 2021, 12:15 am

Mothers wrote:

Exactly. And it does say that Hashem listens to the tefillah of the rabim over the yachid. That’s why Rabbi Akiva davened harder and longer when he davened alone vs with a minyan. (In Brachos). Also: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....=3943

There’s nothing to celebrate about being excluded from a minyan. It is what it is. It’s like when I’m on a diet and everyone is eating dessert and the woman next to me says, “don’t worry, it’s not that great.”