Mrs. On ben Peles | Imamother

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 6:06 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Yes, I think that saying that the greatest leaders of our generations are only that way because they were once Moshe Rabbeinu is saying that no one ever has a chance to be great on their own. There is no true bechirah, in that case. There's no potential for being something incredible, on your own. Not everyone is the reincarnated soul of Rivka or Miriam.

That story about Moshe Rabbeinu having his portrait painted, and his characteristics are so unlike his true persona only because he worked on himself is much more inspiring to me.

Henny Machliss said that her inspiration in life was Sarah Imeinu. Is it inspiring to learn that Henny molded herself and became a Sarah Imeinu for our time? Or is it inspiring to learn that Henny Machliss was actually a reincarnation of Sarah Imeinu? To me, it's always the former.

Moshe asked Hashem, famously, why tzaddikim sometimes suffer and sometimes don't suffer. Hashem said it wasn't an answerable question, we could never understand. If it were as easy as "Well, sometimes people have to atone for sins in a previous life", wouldn't you think Hashem would have mentioned it? And do we all honestly think that Moshe Rabbeinu had some many tikkunim to atone for that he kept having to come back down to earth again and again and again?

I'm finally getting a chance to respond to this...

I think that you and I have a very different understanding of gilgulim, bechira and greatness. I also feel like you might be conflating several ideas.

Let's start with the idea that some souls have a greater destiny than others, vis a vis their impact on world events. I think this is a basic and obvious truth. Moshe Rabbeinu had a very high soul. His birth was predicted, it was seen in the stars, and, upon entering this world, he lit up the house with an otherworldly light. Not every person can be a Moshe. Only one person can be a Moshe, the greatest human being who ever lived.* (but see below)

However, every person can be great. Every person can fulfill their unique potential. My potential is not your potential, and the goal is for me to be the best version of myself. And if I go through life being the best that I can be and maximizing my potential, that is how I can be great, though, again, my greatness will be different than Moshe's. I may not be able to impact world history like Miriam or Esther Hamalka. But perhaps, in my own way, I could affect something great.

So, there absolutely is true bechira. Potential is only the Koach. It is up to each person to bring the Koach el Hapoel - actualize the potential. Whether or not he does is up to him, and that is called bechira. Bilaam was born with the same potential for greatness as Moshe. He used his bechira to rebel against Hashem and be a wicked person. Eisav and Dovid were born with the same potential, Eisav chose to be wicked, Dovid chose to be a tzaddik.

But here is the sticking point: We never know which of us has a greater potential. So we need to treat each child as if he could be a future Moshe Rabbeinu.

By the way, I don't mean to disappoint you, but the story about Moshe Rabbeinu and the portrait is totally fabricated. It appears in the Tiferes Yisreol, but he is sharply criticized by everyone for it, and it has been uncovered to be a fable that is said over about Aristotle, Socrates and many other leaders in different cultures. The Tiferes Yisroel is sharply criticized for this story precisely because the insinuation that Moshe was born with the worst traits is unthinkable and untenable. Listen to this short clip for a broader treatment on the subject: YUTorah Online - A Portrait Of Moshe Rabbeinu (Rabbi Motti Neuburger) https://www.yutorah.org/lectur.....tsapp

This doesn't mean that Moshe didn't have his own issues to work through. In fact, I listened to a fascinating shiur today on the topic of Moshe being a gilgul of Hevel, and the point was made that Hevel was naturally humble. Moshe, being his gilgul had to overcome his natural humility to become assertive and lead the people, something that was diametrically apposed to his nature. *

Kayin on the other hand was born with tremendous power and ga'ava, and his gilgul, Korach was supposed to curb his propensity for ga'ava. He failed however. There are hundreds of examples of Torah figures whose life's mission was to go against their natural middos to fulfill their potential.

The thing about gilgul is that, though it has its place in Jewish philosophy, it is relegated to kabbala. Meaning, it has no practical bearing on our lives. None of us is going around thinking about who our previous hosts were. or at least we shouldn't. So the point you are making about Henny Machlis is not very relevant as far as I'm concerned. If a great and accepted mekubal came along and said that Henny Machlis was a gilgul of Sara Imeinu, it would not lessen my admiration or respect for her one iota, because she worked within the realm of reality, and made choices as we all do. (However, I have absolutely no doubt that she had a very high soul) Each of us can aspire to emulate Sara Imeinu if we choose to.

As far as the famous question that Moshe asked, "Tzaddik v'ra lo, Rasha v'tov lo" It is true that Hashem said you can never understand everything. However, we see that sometimes we do get a glimpse of the behind the scenes. Sometimes, years later, we see how an event that seemed tragic at the time, turned out to be the greatest blessing. As ba'alei emuna we need to view these revelations as a gift that help us realize that there is ALWAYS a rhyme and a reason for things. Sometimes we get to see it, often we don't. So too, sometimes we get a glimpse into the world of gilgulim which help us make sense of otherwise deeply mysterious events. Those revelations help strengthen our emunah that everything that Hashem does is for the best and is part of a Master plan.

I think that including gilgulim in our Torah learning should be like the icing on a cake. Its not P'shat, Remez or Drush. Its sod. It's illuminating and fascinating, but its not where our focus lies. It makes the whole cake taste better, but we wouldn't only eat the icing. And we certainly wouldn't try to think of it in practical terms in our lives.

* The Ohr Hachaim apparently said the opposite, that Moshe was born with natural gaava, and he worked on himself to be an anav, and that he was not "chosen" to be a leader, rather earned it with his yiras Shomayim. Not sure where this Ohr Hachaim is, but I will try to see if I can find it.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 8:02 pm

sweet3 wrote:

There is plenty in Judaism that comes from secular sources. We just mentioned two (gilgul according to Rav saadia and astronomical calculations according to rambam).
There is many more.
R. Yisrael Salanter had told his disciples to learn a specific mussar Sefer that was translated from English to Hebrew. That Sefer is still around. It was written by Benjamin Franklin.
The mitzvos, halachos, can’t come from secular sources. But ideas? Concepts? Sure!
תורה בגויים אל תאמין, חכמה בגויים תאמין

The bolded is an obscure statement.
We are not divorced from secular knowledge and scientific discoveries.
I wouldn't say that "plenty in Judaism" that comes from secular sources, but rather, we incorporate secular knowledge in order to fulfill certain mitzvos.

(We believe in medicine to help us fulfill venishmarten me'od. We may use certain secular measurements for shiurim for brachos and kashrus. etc.)

But I would not go so far as to say "there is plenty in Judaism that COMES from secular sources."

The mussar book you are referring to, "Cheshbon Hanefesh," is actually a big chiddush on why Rav Yisroel accepted it. I don't believe that you can make a blanket statement on that, or extrapolate from that.

The way I have heard this explained is that since Ben Franklin's program for self improvement contain true and salient points, and has been endorsed by gedolei Yisroel, then we know its kosher, just like if a non-Jew would come into a dark room holding a flashlight, we may make use of it.

It actually brings this discussion full circle back to Laura Doyle. Can we accept her marriage advice in a Torah Home?

I am not disagreeing that you make a good point. But I think this is an area where we have to tread very carefully, especially since there may be an overlap between "chochma bagoyim" and "Torah Bagoyim."

↑ imorethanamother

Tue, Jun 15 2021, 9:41 pm

b.chadash wrote:

However, every person can be great. Every person can fulfill their unique potential. My potential is not your potential, and the goal is for me to be the best version of myself. And if I go through life being the best that I can be and maximizing my potential, that is how I can be great, though, again, my greatness will be different than Moshe's. I may not be able to impact world history like Miriam or Esther Hamalka. But perhaps, in my own way, I could affect something great.

Eisav and Dovid were born with the same potential, Eisav chose to be wicked, Dovid chose to be a tzaddik.

But here is the sticking point: We never know which of us has a greater potential. So we need to treat each child as if he could be a future Moshe Rabbeinu.

I cherry picked your response, because you contradict yourself. If someone is destined for greatness before they're even born, how is this bechirah?

Alternately, where is your proof that anyone can be great, if all the great people we know were gilgulim of other great people?

If Eisav is the gilgul of Kayin, who then became Yeshu, how does he have the same potential as David? They don't. David has the benefit of NOT being the soul of Kayin, and instead originating from Adam. (Who was Yaakov as well?) If Bilaam was Lavan, who then became Naval, then it just seems like the same people are destined to be bad or good, over and over and over.

Esther Hamalka was Chava and also Basya, and Haman was the mitzri who Moshe killed, and Mordechai had a piece of Moshe's soul (or, conversely, Yaakov's), and we all just go round and round.

In other words, based on all the available sources, prove that a bad person turned into a great person after being a gilgul. Or that a great person turned into a bad person.

You make assumptions that anyone can be Moshe Rabbainu, that "perhaps I could affect something great". Based on the gilgulim theory, that's pure speculation. All the great people are just recycled previous great people, and there is no evidence that anyone can be great unless they're the secret reincarnated soul of someone else. All the bad people are just previous bad people.

I'm leaving aside the idea that coming down for a "tikkun" seems mystifying when they were so perfect the first time around. I mean, what on earth did Moshe need to rectify? And if he needed to come down to earth so many times, then what does that say about the rest of us? We're going to need to come down to earth for millions of years.

↑ sweet3

Wed, Jun 16 2021, 7:22 am

imorethanamother wrote:

I’m not sure why you get stuck on gilgul. This is a general question.
Do you think the child who gets born into a broken dysfunctional home with an abusive parent has the same potential as a child who gets born at loving caring parents?
If not, how is it fair?
It’s one of those questions that have no answers.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Wed, Jun 16 2021, 5:48 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I've been wanting to get back to this all day and didnt get a chance. I also have only a few minutes now, so I will keep it short.

I think we need to make a distinction between Torah personalities, and regular people like me and you. The mekubalim have revealed the different gilgulim of some of those people in Tanach, and maybe a few random people in later generations.

When I say that there is only one Moshe, it doesn't mean that you personally can't be great just because you don't have the soul of Moshe. We don't have mekubalim today assigning specific "past lives" to each of us. This information is hidden for a reason. (It may be argued that this area of kabbala was never meant to be available for public consumption. Kabbala is a deep and esoteric subject that none of us have the background to understand. Whatever we do understand is simplistic and crude at best. )

Like I said to Sweet3 above, I view the subject of gilgulim like an icing on a cake. The main part is the cake. We focus 99.9 percent of our learning on Pshat and drush. Once in a while, we hear an interesting piece on sod, a gilgul, which helps us to see the unity of Torah.

But I don't think too deeply into it because, a- I dont really understand it, and b- it's not relevant to my life. I don't learn kabbalah, so I won't pretend to understand any of it.

All I know is that it is helpful to have a tiny insight on this subject for those times that there seems to be loose ends, or tragic deaths that are impossible to understand. Then we can say, perhaps there was a gilgul here and that can explain what we cannot understand here, because the totality of human history is intertwined.

Now, I gather that this doesn't work for you. Maybe you like to think much more deeply into these things, while I am content with a very superficial understanding of the subject.

To be honest, while the subject of gilgulim answers a lot of questions, it also introduces just as many problems. This is why some great thinkers were opposed to the idea, either because they thought it was not a valid idea or because they thought it was not a Jewish idea.

So some of the problems you have with the subject were raised by other Rabbis over the years.

On a practical level, I believe that (despite any influence a previous gilgul may or may not have on me) I have potential to be great in my own way. My job in this world is to actualize my potential, and not yours. You may have a greater potential than me, and that is fine. I do not worry about my soul needing to come back again after I die. I am focused on the life I have now, and hopefully trying to be the best I can be. It's not my business to worry about things that are in the realm of the Hidden.

Last edited by b.chadash on Wed, Jun 16 2021, 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total