Mrs. On ben Peles | Imamother

↑ Chayalle ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:49 am

self-actualization wrote:

Chayalle. The Surrendered Wife premise is that the husband is only acting up because he hasn’t received enough respect from the wife. If he would receive enough leeway to make the decisions, and respect from the wife, then he would make the right decisions. OR, he would make the wrong decisions, but they would have a happy family because she wouldn’t be such a nag. But here we are saying that if his decisions are against the Torah, then she can take a stand ...

I don't think the surrendered wife premise always works.

Well let's look at Mr. On for a moment. He wanted respect, so he tried to join with Korach. His wife helped him realize that he wouldn't get the respect he was craving there - he was just being used, and the glory would end up with Korach, not him.

If he would've stuck with Korach, they would not have ended up a happy family.

I think the premise of not to be a big nag all the time is a good one (for either spouse) but to never voice your opinions when your family is headed in the wrong direction is downright dangerous.

gande

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 11:09 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree with you. A wife should very much have an opinion and voice it in the right way at the right time. Husband and wife are a team after all and should support each other. The relatives I know who believe in this surrendered wife approach basically coexist in their marriage and its easy to see that they are not getting fulfillment out of their marriage. It doesn't make them happy or connected, in fact I see the husbands are silently begging for support and not getting anywhere far in life.

ShishKabob

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 11:28 am

First of all, who said the Surrendered Wife is a Torah wife? Of course there is value and good to what she says, but to make it like it's Toras Moshe? Absolutely not!

This whole entire story shows us how terrible machlokes is!!
Mrs. On gets credit for doing something really wrong and bad! Guys, do you hear this? She uncovers her hair and then is praised in the highest form! We can't whitewash and say that she did something permissible.
I take from this that a wife is a able to save her husband literally sometimes by doing the wrong thing, because ultimately it's going to end up being a good thing!
I guess we just have to daven to Hashem that he gives us the seichel what to do and when.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 12:46 pm

shanarishona wrote:

Fascinating thread.
Thank you!
Just want to add -
I don’t think she was talking down to him or saying you’re a loser. I think she was trying to take the human element of ego out of the picture- by showing him that he had nothing to gain from this machlokes.

Majorly different than Mrs Korach who stoked her husbands ego

Just my thoughts.

Thank you all for your interesting perspectives. I'm no expert on Laura Doyle, but I see her being mentioned on this site so frequently that I think her philosophy is very pervasive. So when learning the story of Mrs. On ben Peles, I couldn't help but be struck by the incongruity of her actions and the way we tend to think a Jewish woman should act.

Regarding the bolded, I want to explain why I see her comments to her husband as a "put down".

Korach, the 250 men, and probably On, surely all believed that they were in this fight l'sheim Shomayam. No one is coming out and saying, "let's fight Moshe because we are jealous of his power. We want more power and glory..."

And so, if I were On, and my wife tried to use that argument on me saying, "look, you aren't going to gain anything here. You will never be in a leadership position anyway." I think I would be very insulted and feel put down..because she is not only questioning my judgement, she is questioning my motive. She is accusing me of being in it for the kavod, when really I'm in it for the EMES.

But maybe...and these are obviously just my own musings...take it for what it's worth...

Maybe the marriage between Mr and Mrs. On was actually very strong. Maybe she was able to talk that way to him because he trusted her and he knew that she knew him better than anyone else. He could fool the whole world, and he could even fool himself, but he can't fool his wife. A wife really understands a husband and what makes him tick. So she was able to reach her husband in a way that no one else could.

So she says to him, "Yes, I know you think you are in it l'sheim shomayim. You genuinely think Korach is in the right. But I know you better, and I know that your judgment is being clouded because you aren't feeling so good about yourself. Being part of Korach's gang makes you feel important. It gives you distinction. But realize that ultimately, no matter who wins, you will still be the same person. You will never be leader because you are from Shevet Reuvein. Only people from Shevet Levi are being given these positions.
You have nothing personally to gain from this, so why be involved at all?"

And On was receptive to his wife because he knew that she could read him like a book. If their marriage was not a strong one, it is doubtful that he would have listened to her, and in fact, her words would have riled him up even more because he would have felt misunderstood and even betrayed by his wife.

But since they had years of living together as man and wife, he knew that his wife loved him and knew him well. He also knew that she was one smart lady. And so now, he understood that it was in his own best interest to defer to his wise wife's judgement.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 1:18 pm

meiravit wrote:

I have an alternative theory, but nothing to back it up. So hear me out and feel free to disagree.

I think sometimes the exception proves the rule. So the reason these examples are brought is because you're USUALLY supposed to be nice and sweet, EXCEPT in a situation where your husband will destroy himself and the family etc etc.

BUT if you're constantly nagging him, I don't think your being k'negdo will make much of an impact. He'll just think, "There she goes again, trying to cramp my style."

But if a woman is Laura Doyle-ish most of the time, and then she stands on principle when it's important (not trivial things like him not taking out the garbage) then it's very powerful.

Signed, a woman who appreciates the Laura Doyle method, but practically is too opinionated to actually follow it.

I like this theory because it makes sense: most of the time be a surrendered wife, and then, when it really matters, your opposition will count because you will have proven yourself to not be a nag in general. Kind of, like, choose your battles.

The only thing is- literally every time a woman and women are mentioned in the Torah, it is because she or they opposed their husbands, or at least because they acted on their own. initiative. I can't think of even one exception.

The examples brought above with Sara, Rivka and Rachel..The women in the midbar refusing to give their husband their jewelry for the eigel hazahav, Avigail...

The only exception I can think of is Esther who submitted to Mordechai's councel not to reveal her true identity, and then later to approach Achashveirosh. There we see a woman who MAYBE can be described as a acting similarly to a Surrendered wife (lehavdil).

So I don't know...Mrs. On is pointed to as the smart one, not all those nameless women who followed their husbands around.

I actually dont see anywhere in the Torah where it says that a woman is supposed to respectfully defer to her husband's judgement over her own.

Oh, and the woman who followed her prince of a husband? Her name was Naomi. Look where she ended up...

↑ b.chadash ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 1:46 pm

OOT wrote:

Fascinating topic. Thank you OP.
Doesn’t anyone find it interesting that Mrs. Peles specifically uncovered her hair to save her husband? One would think that someone who is a great tzadeikes would find a more acceptable way to achieve her goal.
But I’d like to suggest that her “scandalous” actions are exactly the point over here. Someone who sees things in black and white terms would never do something that is so clearly an aveira. Uncovering the hair! Unthinkable for a holy woman. BUT a WISE woman knows how to make distinctions in confusing times, understands the nuances and factors that make up each situation. And this specifically is a chochmas nashim. Not black and white halacha, but rather the understanding of what is the will of Hashem in a tricky situation.
For me personally, I relate to this very much. It’s easy to take on chumros. It’s harder to distinguish how and when to be machmir and when basic halacha is sufficient. And when - even at times, we break normative Halacha (obviously, after consulting with an authority) .
I also think that those who try to follow Laura Doyle, or those who specifically don’t, can learn a lot from this.
There is no one right way to behave in all situations. We need to understand each situation and decide how to behave in each individual instance, using our wisdom.

I think this whole post is brilliant. Thank you OOT. So thought provoking.

Often we take a one-dimensional view of things. It's all or nothing. But life is about living in the gray. And in fact, the Torah is replete with examples of people acting in counter-intuitive ways when the occasion called for it. And I think you hit the nail on the head. Chochmas Nashim is the ability to see the bigger picture, to know when to bend, and when to stay firm, to see beyond the here and now. When to be a Rivka who tricks her husband, when to be a Rachel who marries a poor illiterate shepherd, when to uncover your hair in public in order to save your husband's olam hazeh and olam haba.

All of these questions sent me to Torah Anytime to see if anyone talks about these issues. I ended up listening to 3 shiurim on On ben Peles and his wife. While none of them addressed the topic we are discussing, I did pick up some fascinating insights.

Regarding Mrs. On uncovering her hair, I heard from Rabbi Eytan Feiner who said over from the Arizal that Mrs. On did the right thing by uncovering her hair. She did an aveira l'sheim mitzvah- saving a life.

However, she still needed a tikkun for the aveira. So she was came back as a gilgul. As a gilgul, her name was Kimchis. Kimchis went to the opposite extreme. Whereas Mrs. On uncovered her hair out of her house, Kimchis testified that even the walls of her house did not see her hair. She went to the opposite extreme of not uncovering her hair even in the house where m'ikar hadin, a woman does not need to cover her hair.

Kimchis merited to have 7 sons who were Kohanim gedolim. On wanted to join the rebellion because of the machlokes of Korach who was upset that Aharon received the Kehuna gedola. He opposed the appointment by Hashem. Kimchis, eventually received the reward of having 7 of her sons serve as Kohanim gedolim.

He also added that the passuk in Mishlei says that "Chochmas nashim bansa Baysa" the wisdom of women builds a HOUSE...this too is hinting to Kimchis who said that the walls of her HOUSE never saw her hair. The use of the word HOUSE in both case draws a further parallel between the two women.

Last edited by b.chadash on Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

↑ b.chadash ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 1:49 pm

honeymoon wrote:

Actually we see the opposite when it says that Hashem told Avraham to listen to his wife Sara when it came to sending away Hagar and Yishmael.

And according to midrashim Naomi did oppose her husband's plan, but didn't succeed in convincing him.

I have heard it said that she opposed him, but never found a source. Do you know where it says she opposed him?

In any case, that sad story, of Naomi and Elimelech kind of proves the point further. If she did oppose him, he was foolish not to listen to her. He lost not only his wealth, and reputation, but his very life. He ruined his kids too. He goes down in history as being a shofet who made some very bad decisions.

↑ leah233 ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 2:15 pm

b.chadash wrote:

The only thing is- literally every time a woman and women are mentioned in the Torah, it is because she or they opposed their husbands, or at least because they acted on their own. initiative. I can't think of even one exception.

The examples brought above with Sara, Rivka and Rachel..The women in the midbar refusing to give their husband their jewelry for the eigel hazahav, Avigail...

There are many times women are mentioned in the Torah not in relation to something their husbands were (not) doing.

For examples

Rivka before she was married.
The Mayaldos in Mitzrayim.
Miriam by Az Yosher (in fact in all references in the Torah to Miriam and her husband Kolev that I can think of they are independent of each other)
The Bnos Tzelufchad.
etc.

Izebel who is blamed for a lot of her husbands behavior doesn't seem to have been acting in direct opposition to him. Even so had he been married to someone more righteous (or simply less strong minded) he probably would not have ended up as the evil King Achav

↑ b.chadash ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 2:40 pm

leah233 wrote:

All these examples are great example of women who showed initiative and the ability to think for themselves, opposing authority or status quo if necessary. Not necessarily in relation to their husbands, but in relation to men or authority.

Miriam is definitely known to have a mind of her own. Firstly the medrash says she opposed her father when he divorced his mother. There is also a medresh that says she berated Pharoah when he commanded the miyaldos to kill the baby boys. She wasn't a quiet docile little girl. The Miyaldos totally went against Pharaoh.

We know Rivka had a mind of her own after she got married, when she plotted the switcheroo with Yaakov. Before she got married, we only see her chessed and tznius.

The Bnos Tzelaphchad are great examples of women who fought for their rights! They took the initiative to demand their father's share. They went to the lowest court and worked their way up until they came to Moshe Rabbeinu himself.

No, they were not quiet women who were content to just let the men take over. Rashi says these were all righteous and wise women.

↑ enneamom ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 2:43 pm

b.chadash wrote:

~~Wasn't there something about Rivka inviting Eliezer to Besuel's house although he wouldn't have wanted to host guests, or am I imagining that?~~

Edited: yes, I think I totally made that up. But she was strong minded enough to grow up as a Rivka in the home of a Besuel.

Last edited by enneamom on Mon, Jun 14 2021, 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Chayalle

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 2:53 pm

OOT wrote:

I think though when one knows the Halachos of hair-covering, it's not so strange. The Halacha of covering hair was IIRC in the mavo and the shuk - in public places. Covering one's hair at home and in one's chatzer is not a D'oraysah chiyun - it's daas yehudis and may not have evolved yet at that point. So really l'halacha it's quite possible that she was not obligated to cover her hair in the area of her own tent. But the men went away because even though she didn't have to cover, they didn't look!

I do think, of course, that using one's brains is always imperative. I have a childhood friend whose grandmother - a woman as tzanuah as you ever could have seen, a very chashuva frum woman - uncovered her long blonde hair and flirted with Nazi officers, and convinced them to release her "boyfriend" (husband and father of her children, actually) who had been arrested, thus saving his life. There's a time and place for everything....

↑ leah233

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 6:05 pm

b.chadash wrote:

This post isn't really about women and their influence on their husbands. This is just a simple fact of life.
A strong minded independent person is far more likely to accomplish things, good or bad, than a quiet passive one.

Also these women didn't fight with authority for their rights. They worked with it. Rivka in particular didn't confront Yitzchok with "why are you giving brochas to Esav?" (Why she didn't is another discussion)

Two final thoughts from me on this thread

Shlomo Hamelech's wives had a bad influence on him even though they weren't necessarily strong independent women who were looking to do so.

Devorah Haneviah is called Eishes Lapidus because she caused her husband to have zchius in the next world. I am still 100% positive that in general she was not some domineering or nagging wife always telling him to what to do