Mrs. On ben Peles | Imamother

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 6:31 pm

sweet3 wrote:

The problem with getting shalom bayis lessons from a midrash is that you can spin it whichever way you want. That’s why I hate it when speakers prove their points using a maamar chazal or midrash.
You seem to have a strong opinion on the matter, but don’t use the midrash to prove your point because you can easily use it to disprove it.
(For example: if she wanted to go behind his back, she’d just find an excuse to get him drunk and avoid the whole conversation).
Either way, I like your observations and if it works for you, so be it Smile

Lol. I'm not trying to get Shalom bayis lessons from a medrash, but it just so happens to be that the gemara uses this woman as THE example of the smart wife, so I think its prudent to see what it was that she did already.

A couple of years ago, while going through the parsha, it struck me that Mrs. Peles was not fitting the stereotypical picture of the wise woman who builds her home by building up her husband. In fact, I think what she did is decidedly the opposite of what we expect.

I was really bothered by it, especially since I think that she is talking down to her husband just as much as Mrs. Korach was. The conclusion I reached is that this woman took action. She didn't just try to show her husband the error of his ways. She actually went and debased herself, something that could not have been easy, in order to save her husband's life. Sometimes a woman's got to act.

Yesterday while reading it, I remembered what what bothering me then. It is just the opposite if what we keep being told. To be docile and not interfere in your husbands yiddishkeit. Is that working for us? Maybe, Maybe not.

(Imagine such a thing happening today. A woman not only interfering in her husband's decision on whom to support, but going so far as to expose her erva in order to save him? It's unthinkable. On the other hand this was truly a matter of Pikuach Nefesh. )

Btw, I think we can just as well take Shalom bayis tips from Mrs. Peles as from Laura Doyle.

And sure, Rabbonim always use Chazal and midrashim to make their point. What else should they base their classes on? If the speaker is a proper talmid chacham that is able to look at events through the lens of Torah hashkafa, they will use Chazal to bring out their points.

Don't take MY observation as anything but my own ruminations. I dont have any prior agendas, as I happen to like the surrendered wife message. But I cannot make sense of this story, other than what I have concluded.

I do however feel its an important story, one that Chazal wants us to learn from. I am sharing my thoughts to hear what others think. I would love to hear if there is another way to "spin" this.

Last edited by b.chadash on Mon, Jun 14 2021, 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total

↑ sweet3 ↓

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 6:42 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Lol. I'm not trying to get Shalom bayis lessons from a medrash, but it just so happens to be that the gemara uses this woman as THE example of the smart wife, so I think its prudent to see what it was that she did already.

A couple of years ago I was asked to speak to some women on Shabbos Parashas Korach and, in trying to think of what to say, I came across this story. It struck me then that Mrs. Peles was not fitting the stereotypical picture of the wise woman who builds her home by building up her husband. In fact, I think what she did is decidedly the opposite of what we expect.

I was really bothered by it, especially since I think that she is talking down to her husband just as much as Mrs. Korach was. The conclusion I reached is that this woman took action. She didn't just try to show her husband the error of his ways. She actually went and debased herself, something that could not have been easy, in order to save her husband's life. Sometimes a woman's got to act.

Yesterday while reading it, I remembered what what bothering me then. It is just the opposite if what we keep being told. To be docile and not interfere in your husbands yiddishkeit. Is that working for us? Maybe, Maybe not.

(Imagine such a thing happening today. A woman not only interfering in her husband's decision on whom to support, but going so far as to expose her erva in order to save him? It's unthinkable. On the other hand this was truly a matter of Pikuach Nefesh. )

Btw, I think we can just as well take Shalom bayis tips from Mrs. Peles as from Laura Doyle.

And sure, Rabbonim always use Chazal and midrashim to make their point. What else should they base their classes on? If the speaker is a proper talmid chacham that is able to look at events through the lens of Torah hashkafa, they will use Chazal to bring out their points.

Don't take MY observation as anything but my own ruminations. I dont have any prior agendas, as I happen to like the surrendered wife message. But I cannot make sense of this story, other than what I have concluded.

I do however feel its an important story, one that Chazal wants us to learn from. I am sharing my thoughts to hear what others think. I would love to hear if there is another way to "spin" this.

I really do like your observations and I also think there’s a different way to spin this Peles thing. It’s still a mumble jumble of thoughts in my head but I hope to find the time To write it down later.
But as a side note, re speakers using midrashim, I find it problematic because for every midrash in one direction you can find a midrash in an opposite direction. It’s not like a halacha in which we have rules which shita is accepted and which one is rejected. It’s free for all. So speakers get to dig up midrashim tailored to their preconceived agenda.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 6:46 pm

sweet3 wrote:

As far as the bolded, I think she first tried talking to him. She tried to reason with him first. She didnt just go straight for the wine. His response? "Gee what can I do? I already gave my word that I'm with them. "

She realized then that he cannot extricate himself from his own mess. He wasn't strong enough, or committed enough. She would need to step in a take control.

So I think it was both. First tried to get him on her side, but when she saw he needed her help, she went for plan B.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 6:55 pm

sweet3 wrote:

100% agree. That's why I said, if the speaker is a proper Talmid chacham or accepted darshan, we like to hear what he has to say. Is it the only way to view that chazal? No. But we listen because these people have learned much Torah, or received hadracha from their great rebbeim. And, yes, they typically will use a chazal or passuk to base their ideas off. I'd much rather hear their ideas than someone who is not connected to Torah, or who has no basis at all for saying what he does, other than his own agenda.

If on the other hand, the person is an apikorus, or has an agenda about anything, he can also find Torah sources to prove his position.

Like the joke goes, "Ma ahavti- Sorosecha. " That which I love- I say is Your Torah.

Bottom line, be careful who you listen to.

↑ sweet3 ↓

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 7:41 pm

So in order to understand the midrash, let’s imagine an alternative scenario.
Mr Peles comes home from work and he’s late again.
Mrs Peles: On, why are you late?
On: nothing much, been chatting with friends.
Mrs P: who are these new friends of yours? This is the third time in a week you come home late.
On: well I’ve got a new group of friends, some very smart people.
Mrs P: don’t tell me there’s any connection to the new Korach rebellion in our midst.
On: actually, they are my new friends. We are planning to overthrow Moshe rabeini.
(Mrs P drops the plate from shock):
On, Please tell me this is a joke!
On: no, actually we think Korach is a great leader and I’m supporting him. Moshe did a great job splitting the sea and all but we need a new leadership.
Mrs P: this is Kefirah!! What happened to you? Are you crazy???
On: no I’m not crazy. I think korach is charismatic and he doesn’t stutter like Moshe, and he has fantastic ideas. He also wants to implement my own ideas.
Mrs P: aha! So he promised you a position in the new leadership!
On: well I’ve always had ideas how to improve the whole midbar situation and I think I will
Be a capable aid to korach.
Mrs P: Oh well. This is who you are. Full of grandiosity and fantasies. You’re taking part in an act to overthrow the holy moshe rabeinu. They won’t accept our kids at school. And of course you’ll fail. You really think you can win here?
On: listen, my mind is made up. I don’t care how low you think of me. I’ve got some great friends, chosheve yidden who won’t even look at a woman! They all think we have a chance and they all believe in me.
Mrs P: I’m going straight for a divorce. I want no part in this.
On: oh really? Who’s gonna help you with the kids? How are you gonna support yourself? Is this your reward for me trying to work my way up the ladder and get a good position that will bring us pride and money?
(Mrs peles leaves the room seething in anger. On goes to sleep. The next day he goes back to his friends and continue the revolution. After two hours the earth opens up. On and Mrs Peles continue their argument in the ground).
Now here’s to the real version....
On comes home late etc. Mrs Peles sees her DH can’t think straight. She understands it’s useless to start arguing so she tries a different route.
Mrs Peles: On sweetheart, I honestly think you’d make a great leader.
On: really? So I have your support?!
Mrs Peles: YOU have my support. Korach does not.
On: what do you mean?
Mrs P: see, korach is a smart politician. He’s using you and the rest of the chosheve yidden as tools in his rebellion. What will you gain from all this?
On: well I’ll be a prominent rabbi after this is all over.
Mrs P: come to think of it, if korach doesn’t trust Moshe rabeinu and wants to overthrow him, you really think you’ll have an influence on him, or at all? He’s using you for his power craving. You will end up worse than before.
On: ok, I see your point. But these are my friends, we’ve been planning this for months now. There’s no way out.
Mrs Peles: oh On sweetheart. Don’t worry about that. I’ve got a plan.
On: really? Tell me.
Mrs Peles: let’s first relax. Have a cup of wine. Will talk later.
And the rest, as they say, is history.

mazal555 ↓

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 11:38 pm

The whole surrendered wife thing is very Xtian. Not Jewish at all. Look at OUR role models.

Sara. Told her husband to marry. Then told him to send away his son and wife. Her husband complains; G-d says, listen to your wife.
Rifkah. Told her husband to give the bracha to Yitzchak. He didn't listen, so she tricked him.
Rachel Gave her sister her husband's password behind his back to save her sister embarrassment. Imagine that ImaFather post. Later, went behind his back and stole her father's idols without telling him.
Tziporah: Her husband decided not to do their son's brit mila, so she went ahead and did it herself.
On's wife; my husband wasn't listening to me so I drugged him and uncovered my hair on the front porch to keep his super frum friends away.
Devorah: Husband isn't learning. I'll send him on made up errands so he goes and learns.

Basically, the common theme is that these women thought for themselves, decided what was right, voiced their opinions, and when their husbands didn't cooperate, MADE THEM cooperate. Or just did it themselves.

We are told that the good Jewish wife is a "helpmeet AGAINST him" but I think a better translation of knegdo is symbiotic to him

Java

Sun, Jun 13 2021, 11:50 pm

mazal555 wrote:

Wish I could like this 100000 times!! Thank you

meiravit

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 1:06 am

I have an alternative theory, but nothing to back it up. So hear me out and feel free to disagree.

I think sometimes the exception proves the rule. So the reason these examples are brought is because you're USUALLY supposed to be nice and sweet, EXCEPT in a situation where your husband will destroy himself and the family etc etc.

BUT if you're constantly nagging him, I don't think your being k'negdo will make much of an impact. He'll just think, "There she goes again, trying to cramp my style."

But if a woman is Laura Doyle-ish most of the time, and then she stands on principle when it's important (not trivial things like him not taking out the garbage) then it's very powerful.

Signed, a woman who appreciates the Laura Doyle method, but practically is too opinionated to actually follow it.

OOT ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 1:37 am

Fascinating topic. Thank you OP.
Doesn’t anyone find it interesting that Mrs. Peles specifically uncovered her hair to save her husband? One would think that someone who is a great tzadeikes would find a more acceptable way to achieve her goal.
But I’d like to suggest that her “scandalous” actions are exactly the point over here. Someone who sees things in black and white terms would never do something that is so clearly an aveira. Uncovering the hair! Unthinkable for a holy woman. BUT a WISE woman knows how to make distinctions in confusing times, understands the nuances and factors that make up each situation. And this specifically is a chochmas nashim. Not black and white halacha, but rather the understanding of what is the will of Hashem in a tricky situation.
For me personally, I relate to this very much. It’s easy to take on chumros. It’s harder to distinguish how and when to be machmir and when basic halacha is sufficient. And when - even at times, we break normative Halacha (obviously, after consulting with an authority) .
I also think that those who try to follow Laura Doyle, or those who specifically don’t, can learn a lot from this.
There is no one right way to behave in all situations. We need to understand each situation and decide how to behave in each individual instance, using our wisdom.

↑ sweet3 ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:19 am

mazal555 wrote:

You forgot to mention the first woman: Chava. She took matters into her own hands and ate from the Aitz Hadaas.
By the way:
“Her husband decided not to do their son's brit mila.”
You do realize you’re talking about Moshe Rabeinu here.

Chayalle ↓

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:32 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

Is her name mentioned anywhere? We have all these amazing women whose names we know, and we have this woman here from whom who we are supposedly meant to learn this great lesson about our own strength and power, and we don’t even know her name?

This might not resonate with many, but we were talking about this on Shabbos....
It reminded me of something I once heard from Rebbetzin Zehava Braunstein A"H. She said she always disliked the title Rebbetzin. She much preferred being called Mrs. because that was the area in life where she put the greatest effort.
Mrs. On Ben Peles's greatest achievement was as On's wife. She saved him from the greatest downfall. The title Mrs. is her greatest claim to fame, so that's what we are told about her. The Torah doesn't include anything extra, so we know what we need to know.

↑ Ema of 5

Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:38 am

mazal555 wrote:

That’s not really what happened. Moshe promised history that he wouldn’t give his first born son a bris, and would allow him to choose for himself how he wanted to live. Tzippora gave birth to 5eir second son while moshe was in the desert, speaking to good about being chosen to save the Jews. When he got home, he had to leave immediately for Egypt, as God had told him. He wanted to take his family with him, but he chose to hold off on doing the bris until they got to mitzrayim because doing it earlier would put the baby at risk while traveling.
Tzippora also did not just decide to go ahead and do it herself. They stayed at an in overnight, and an angel came and attacked Moshe. It took the form of a snake and swallowed him both from the top and the bottom, leaving only the area of the bris untouched. Tzippora realized the significance, and only then did she give her son a bris.

Last edited by Ema of 5 on Mon, Jun 14 2021, 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total