Bleacher collapse | Imamother

amother

Cobalt ↓

Mon, May 17 2021, 2:18 pm

A letter was sent out two weeks ago, to the gabbaim of the shul, with copies to the police, the fire department, etc etc. The letter clearly stated that the structure was unsafe for a large gathering, and that before doing so the shul would need to get seven different permits.

Now every organization is busy blaming the other.

unsafe for large gathering

DrMom ↓

Mon, May 17 2021, 2:19 pm

I really have to wonder what the %*§& people are thinking.

Quote:

Deddi Simhi, head of the Israel Fire and Rescue service, told Israel’s Channel 12 that “this building is not finished. It doesn’t even have a permit for occupancy ... let alone holding events in it.”

https://www.latimes.com/world-.....lapse

Iymnok ↓

Mon, May 17 2021, 2:48 pm

We heard and saw helicopters until after the men came home last night. There were announcements to stay out of the streets to let the ambulances free passage. We saw the helicopters dip down, I guess to do airlifts.
DS9 heard the Hatzolah calls on the radios of the local volunteers.
There were rumors throughout Yomtov.
Many thought the announcements from the helicopters were to stay inside due to a Terrorist on the loose. B”H those proved false.

amother

Royalblue ↓

Mon, May 17 2021, 3:26 pm

alwayssmiling wrote:

I wish someone would explain a reason to all these endless sufferings and death
what are we doing wrong????

Unfortunately, in this case, we know. The organizers went ahead with the event even though they had been denied a permit on safety grounds. Yes, Hashem can do miracles. But we live in the real world and have to follow the laws of nature.

It's bad enough when our enemies try to hurt us. It's senseless when we recklessly endanger ourselves.

But still, let's daven for the injured and hope this kind of kind of tragedy can be avoided in the future.

↑ Elfrida ↓

Mon, May 17 2021, 4:15 pm

Iymnok wrote:

It must have been a hard Yom Tov, given the way we are all living on hyper-alert at the moment. I wish things had turned out better, but it could have been so much worse.

blessedflower

Mon, May 17 2021, 5:46 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

no excuse really, but my dh says the building didn't have its permits yet, but the bleachers did have a permit and was okay to use

amother

↑ Cobalt ↓

Mon, May 17 2021, 6:26 pm

blessedflower wrote:

no excuse really, but my dh says the building didn't have its permits yet, but the bleachers did have a permit and was okay to use

Any building without a 'tofes 4' is not allowed to be used for large gatherings. One can't get a permit for a structure inside an unapproved building.

אתמול, עוד לפני שהוכרז שבאסון נהרגו שני בני אדם, כבר החלו ראשי הרשויות להפיל את האחריות לכשלים מאחד לשני. פחות משעתיים לאחר קריסת הטריבונה באירוע של חסידות קרלין הגיע לידי ynet מייל שנשלח אתמול בבוקר ממערך הכבאות למועצה, שבו הזהירו מקיום האירוע בבית הכנסת המאולתר. מיד לאחר מכן - התקבלו מהמשטרה והמועצה המכתבים שהוחלפו ביניהם בימים האחרונים. גורם במשטרה אמר כי ישנם אלפי אתרי בנייה ללא טופס 4 ברחבי הארץ - ובכולם אסור לקיים אירועים הומי קהל. "האחריות של הרשות המקומית היה להוציא צו סגירה לאתר, וצו כזה מעולם לא הוצא", אמר הגורם.

↑ Iymnok ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 1:52 am

It’s still under construction. The shell has been up for a bit. The building materials are still on the sidewalk so the bus stops a little ahead or behind since the workers caravan and the trash bin are in the way. We have been so happy for them since they’ve expanded and outgrew the beis medrash a long time ago.
The structure itself seems to not be the problem, rather the bleachers.
The area has the most awkward streets. It’s a steep street with many cars parked on both sides of the street making it possible only for one wide lane. I can’t imagine the balagan with evacuating the injured. I really hope those were airlifts saw.

amother

Goldenrod ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 5:40 am

They have their own bleachers and rented extras for the Chanukat Habayit. The rented bleachers collapsed. This had nothing to do with the structure of the building.
I was told that they got approval to use the building before yom tov.

↑ DrMom ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:09 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

According to this article, this is not true:

Quote:

...police warned the local council about the danger of allowing services at the building, which did not have an occupancy permit.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/.....alem/

amother

↑ Royalblue ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:15 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

We all want to see the best in people. Karlin-Stolin was careful during corona. The chassidus isn't generally dismissive of safety rules. This seems like a tragic exception.

But the facts are that the town forbade holding any event inside the building. They have dated correspondence as evidence.

You can't get a permit to use bleachers inside a building that hasn't been approved for use. Bleachers, whether rented or owned, are inspected before large events. (Many venues rent seating, it's not unheard of.)

But if the bleachers are constructed and set up in a place where no event permit has been issued, no one inspects them for safety.

amother

↑ Royalblue ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:20 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Read this article:

https://www.israelnationalnews.....06360

If they had gotten permits, then it would be quite easy to forward the email or a picture of the letter. At best, the spokesman here was uninformed.

amother

↑ Goldenrod ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:30 am

Who says the permits weren't forwarded?
I saw the letters that were being passed around the minute shabbos was over which means they were probably already sent out on shabbos. You can't expect Karlin to pass around letters on shabbos and in the middle of dealing with the tragedy. I'm sure they sent them in today.

They are known to be very law abiding - whether it was Corona rules or anything else. The Rebbe (who is originally American) closed their shul because of Corona before it was even the law to close down shuls. They have Israeli flags hanging on their street and their many chassidim who moved here from chu"l made aliyah and most did Ulpan.

amother

↑ Goldenrod ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:38 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

If they got a permit from the moetza before yom tov, then it's available. Why not forward it to the media?

Why do they have to forward things to the media?

amother

↑ Royalblue ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:42 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

Why do they have to forward things to the media?

To show that they had a permit. Right now, all news outlets are saying that they didn't, and they are providing as proof a letter from the moetza refusing a permit. If such a permit exists, it would be an important step in understanding what went wrong, and hopefully in preventing future tragedies.

↑ DrMom ↓

Tue, May 18 2021, 6:48 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

If there are actual permits, I'll wait until this information is reported. So far that's not what I have read.

Re: the bolded: I am not up-to-date re: the number of people allowed to gather indoors these days, but there seem to be upwards of 1000 unmasked people in this indoor gathering.

Not saying that has anything to do with the bleacher collapse, but it seems to contradict your claim that this is a community which is a stickler for following safety laws.