Dayan called me "דו"

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amother

OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 5:04 am

A dayan I've spoken to in the past recently called me דו. I thought it was a mistake until the dayan said it again and דיר and when the dayan told me האלט א רגע . I was very unglued and am very uncomfortable by this.

I know this dayan is erlich and I don't think otherwise but I'm confused about what happened.

I don't want to bring it up and be disrespectful but I also don't want to stop calling. I also think maybe the dayan needs to know I have these kinds of thoughts. I actually cried a little over my confusion just to help explain how it affects me.

Do you think I should:
1. Let it go and see if it happens again?
2. Ask the dayan a shaila about using דו for an איר in my own life?
3. Something else?

Lastly, have you ever had this before?

amother

Gold

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 5:07 am

For the non Yiddish speakers, can you explain the difference

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:44 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

For the non Yiddish speakers, can you explain the difference

דו is you for informal talking between friends and to children.

איר is you for formal speech between you to your elders, when speaking to someone as a sign of respect, and always between men and women.

Children today mostly say דו to their parents, but some do third person for respect (I do), and third person is standard by grandparents and in laws and also when speaking to a dayan so you would say "I want to ask the dayan something" and not use a you at all but when the dayan wants to ask you something the dayan would refer to you as איר because of you being a woman and it wouldn't really pas for a dayan to say דו which is why I'm so confused. Usually the men who are referring to women as דו are a different type and certainly not a dayan, especially not an erliche dayan.

I think probably only yiddish speakers will understand the question.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:49 am

Like "tu" and "vous" in French. The first is informal and used between people who are close.

amother

Rose ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:54 am

It's not a problem. It's not right that you're nitpicking like this.

You may not feel comfortable with it but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

If he's erlich enough that you trust him to pasken things for you, you should trust him with this and accept that it's innocent and his way of addressing you.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

ETA it's certainly not standard to call parents and in laws in third person. Only a certain type do. Most people don't.

English3 ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:55 am

I can't answer for you BC it is the subtle things that can bother a person. I wouldn't even notice if a dayan would say that.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:56 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

But the dayan never addressed me this way before. I'm confused. I don't think I'd continue to call a dayan that would do this since it is not standard. I'm not nitpicking I was just thrown off gard and I'm very confused and unnerved by the situation. I definitely know this dayan is erlich. So you are you saying you would just wait and see if it happens again?

↑ English3

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:58 am

I think the world has changed so much that it is pretty normal (in my world that is)

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 6:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If your not comfortable with a Dayan for any reason what so ever, its perfectly ok for you to go to another.

But even if he does it again, if there is no difference otherwise in his behaviour towards you, it's probably innocent. But either way, it's probably best to switch Dayanim. You need to trust your Dayan fully.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 7:02 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

I don't think I can just call another so I appreciate you're perspective that it can be perfectly ok and just a style. I'll keep that in mind.

amother

Blue ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 7:39 am

It's possible that what you think is the "norm" is not the objective norm.

We've had several thread recently in which one poster thought a certain thing was considered standard in the chassidish community and many other posters claimed it was not. Sometimes we need a reality check.

I think "you, ir," is interchangeable especially in American Yiddish. European yiddish is different.

amother

Saddlebrown

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 7:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't think I can just call another so I appreciate you're perspective that it can be perfectly ok and just a style. I'll keep that in mind.

What if you stated that you prefer the formal loshon? I'm not a yiddish speaker, so I don't know how you'd say that, but it seems like you'd say something to the effect "I'd prefer that the formal loshon is used with the dayan."

If it's merely a sensibility thing, he will honor your comfort level. He may be acting familiar because for some the formal tone is too distant.

I think you can both show respect as well as honor your own boundary.

imasinger

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 7:43 am

If you've contacted this dayan before, he may have grandfatherly feelings about you, and routinely do this with repeat customers.

There's nothing wrong with asking "I noticed something recently, would the honored dayan please clarify for me when does a dayan call someone "du" and when "ihr"?

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 7:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I know this was said as a side point, by way of explanation. But I feel I need to comment on this, because just yesterday I heard this idea that really surprised me.

According to the Chasam Sofer, who quoted his Rebbe, Rav Nosson Adler, Jews dont address their own parents in third person. Only non-Jews do.(!) It is improper to address a parent in third person, because it's a distant, formal way to speak, and Jews are supposed to have a close, loving relationship with their parents.

We learn this out from the way Yaakov Avinu addressed his father Yitzchak when he brought him the food, versus the way Eisav addressed Yitzchak. Eisav used third person, "Father should get up " and Yaakov used second person. "Please (you) get up."

I'm not here to criticize OP's derech. I'm just saying this for the benefit of others who may be reading that some people address their parents in third person, and thinking to institute this into their own lives. And I'm a bit amazed because I just heard this idea yesterday, and before that, I would have assumed that its more proper to speak to parents in third person.

And it also proves OP's point a bit, that the Dayan using first person could be viewed as too informal, ( though I doubt the dayan meant anything by it).

blessedflower

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 8:14 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

For the non Yiddish speakers, can you explain the difference

I find that English speakers really don't understand this well. In English it's always 'you'.
But you can explain it with French. You would say to someone respectful 'vous' instead of 'tu'.
In this case די is a bit to friendly or close to use.

Op I find lots of people are less aware of this

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 8:15 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

It is definitely the norm for a dayan to speak to a woman as איר and I can't even ask anyone in my circles about this in real life because they would be shocked. Yes, my circles are old timer types and more frum but this is like asking if it is appropriate to hand something directly over to a dayan or the like. It's just obviously unusual but I still know this dayan is erlich so that's why I am torn and confused and probably why I was crying although that is quite embarrassing.

Also no, דו & איר are not interchangable in certain contexts. There are clear times you use דו and clear times you use איר. Sometimes you may think should I use איר with a saleslady in a store etc but there are times it is very obvious what you do use, even in the US. I have no idea what people do in Europe.

amother

Ruby ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 8:43 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I know this was said as a side point, by way of explanation. But I feel I need to comment on this, because just yesterday I heard this idea that really surprised me.

According to the Chasam Sofer, who quoted his Rebbe, Rav Nosson Adler, Jews dont address their own parents in third person. Only non-Jews do.(!) It is improper to address a parent in third person, because it's a distant, formal way to speak, and Jews are supposed to have a close, loving relationship with their parents.

We learn this our from the way Yaakov Avinu addressed his father Yitzchak when he brought him the food, versus the way Eisav addressd Yitzchak. Eisav used third person, "Get up father" and Yaakov used second person. "Please (you) get up."

I'm not here to criticize OP's derech. I'm just saying this for the benefit of others who may be reading that some people address their parents in tgird person, and thinking to institute this into their own lives. And I'm a bit amazed because I just heard this idea yesterday, and before that, I would have assumed that its more proper to speak to parents in third person.

And it also proves OP's point a bit, that the Dayan using first person could be viewed as too informal, ( though I doubt the dayan meant anything by it).

Yes to this!

OP you don't have to share all the details but it looks like you're not asking yes or no questions from him and there's a serious or lengthy discussions or there's ongoing questions about a serious issue.

3 separate dayanim have told me dee when immersed in such a discussion or even when I just called back to clarify a quick question.

Especially if the topic was very heavy they didn't remember to say eehr or they said vart a minute etc...

I used to think this is it... this dayan wants to hug me because I was so traumatized that every encounter with a man made my alarms go up.
Especially with a dayan I was afraid that maybe he is covering up with his learning and maybe underneath it all he is just a lowlife and here I just found out what he really is and I was so unsure of myself.

Years later looking back I can tell you it was all my own insecurities and my own issues.

I owe my life to these frum guys that would otherwise never talk to a woman but they gave me so much of their time and made me feel worthy of it.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 8:52 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Thanks this is very relatable. I was thinking how the dayan always seems to have so much time to pick up could it really mean chv he never is learning at all and only took this position to speak to women about shailos etc. I know that is paranoid and not rational though so I disregarded it. I know the dayan is erlich I just feel so unsure about the whole thing.

amother

Babypink

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 9:02 am

blessedflower wrote:

Spanish too- 'usted' is the formal 'you'

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 23 2021, 9:55 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Spanish too- 'usted' is the formal 'you'

But here there is the formal informal language aspect but importantly a yiddishkeit issue as well since men should not be speaking to a woman as "dee" and especially not erliche men and especially not a dayan. That's where the confusion comes in.

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