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-> Vacation and Traveling
InnerMe
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 Sun, Dec 06 2020, 4:59 pm
| CrazyDaisie wrote: | Why would she ask for a refund of the ticket price, if they ended up providing the full service and bringing her to her destination 30 minutes later?
I would just ask for an apology. |
This post reminds me of a certain poster. (3.0?)
Fox, I'm sorry it's terrible what happened to your daughter.
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Fox
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 5:06 pm
| amother [ Peach ] wrote: | I dont know any details, and it sounds like a terrible story.
But...a mask that doesn't cover the nose is useless. If your mask keeps slipping, it's not worth anything. If it's the cheap disposable type, you can try to reloop it over your ears.
My son just flew on El Al and he said the attendants needed to remind some people throughout the flight to cover their noses, as though they were little children. |
I think a key point in the whole story is how the flight attendant perceived the situation.
My daughter doesn't believe her mask had slipped below her nose but is willing to concede the point for the sake of the argument. If so, the expected reaction from a flight attendant would be to say, "Excuse me, could you please reposition your mask so that it covers your nose?"
Instead, the flight attendant immediately jumped to the narrative that my daughter was being "non-compliant," confronted her aggressively, and then reported her as "non-compliant" to the pilots. Which explains why the pilots were surprised to see her wearing a mask and attempting to be cooperative after deplaning.
So why did the flight attendant escalate an easily-solvable problem so dramatically? Was it pure antisemitism? Had she been conditioned by the rhetoric of elected officials in NY to believe that frum Jews are likely to be non-compliant? Was she just having a bad day and happened to take it out on my daughter?
All of those are possibilities, and it's unlikely that we'll ever truly know. Certainly some of her remarks suggest that there was more going on than simply a slipped mask -- if indeed the mask had slipped.
What I have learned from this incident is that stories such as this can be true without making any sense. It is easy to dismiss such a story and say, "C'mon! There's gotta be more to the story than that!"
But sometimes, as other posters have verified through similar experiences, there's really not more to the story. Whether motivated by antisemitism or something else, sometimes people in positions of authority simply go off the deep end. Flight attendants, in particular, are particularly susceptible. They have significant responsibility; their jobs are often unpleasant; and they are very poorly paid. Yet I doubt if most of us -- including my daughter -- would be enthused about airfares doubling in order to attract better flight attendants.
While it would be nice if my daughter gets her desired apology and refund, we're not expecting it. But hopefully, Delta will have seen enough references to the incident online to at least tell the flight attendant to use better judgment in the future.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 5:26 pm
Thank you for the update Fox!
As usual so articulate.
sorry this happened!
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 6:04 pm
| crust wrote: | Thanks for the laugh but did this help? Did United do anything about it?
I doubt. | United apologized, said they would do better in the future and donated a few thousand dollars to some cause as an atonement.
Then several years later they broke a doctor’s nose because they were trying to bump him to a different flight, and their stock plummeted. Supposedly they really did shape up after that incident. The pr that time was bad enough to hurt them financially.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 6:27 pm
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shocking that this employee as well as the airline would feel they can act like this and get away with it -- hope they are wrong
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amother
Brown
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 6:34 pm
| number wrote: |
Then several years later they broke a doctor’s nose because they were trying to bump him to a different flight, and their stock plummeted. |
Say what?
That’s quite a bump. Is this a typo?
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Sprinkles1
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 6:51 pm
| amother [ Brown ] wrote: | Say what?
That’s quite a bump. Is this a typo? |
Yeah, I remember that.
Google United and Dr. Dao
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amother
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 7:33 pm
My daughter doesn't believe her mask had slipped below her nose but is willing to concede the point for the sake of the argument. If so, the expected reaction from a flight attendant would be to say, "Excuse me, could you please reposition your mask so that it covers your nose?"
I watched the video.
It seems its likely mask was not covering properly. I also saw a nice fligth attendant coming to offer her an alternative mast that may offer better stability and no slip.
I also heard passanger (your daughter) keeping asking for attendants name "bc she wants to tell airlines all details with great accuracy'. In simple English, she tells them she will complain, and need their name.
I think that was a mistake.
She created a confrontational situation. if you want to complain, its ok to do so later, dont be a smart guy, dont tell them you will. thats where she lost her case.
Teach young people to show respect, even if not deserved, and the whole situations maybe would be different.
Take your camera out, record in front of their face, ask for exact name and say out loud you will complain in detail - and you escalated and all turns ugly.
learn from it. You have to be graceful even if others are not.
Do not threat you will complain + taking a video
You are inviting trouble,
and if you lower your head to daven and its not clear mask covers properly, and already something is cooking around you, lift your face, fully covered, tighten your mast. show you are in compliance.
Dont bend back to your sidur. Hashem will be ok with it.
Many other frum were on same flight, they didnt antagonize, and they were able to land at their desination as planned.
We have to create kidush Hashem. Compliance, speak nicely. Show we are good citizens, we appreciate davening, but good judgement is called for.
You would expect me to say airline is horrible, But I would say 'be Mekadesh Hashem". Its no chidush that a non jew can turn not accomodating. But we need to keep clearly appearing respecting rules, polite, compliant. (face up for the rest of the trip, even if you daven).
Sorry it happened. Didnt end up well for anyone.
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 7:37 pm
| amother [ Brown ] wrote: | Say what?
That’s quite a bump. Is this a typo? | No, that’s how United bumped passengers. But they promised not to do it again so no worries.
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 7:43 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: |
It seems its likely mask was not covering properly. I also saw a nice fligth attendant coming to offer her an alternative mast that may offer better stability and no slip.
I also heard passanger (your daughter) keeping asking for attendants name "bc she wants to tell airlines all details with great accuracy'. In simple English, she tells them she will complain, and need their name.
I think that was a mistake.
She created a confrontational situation. if you want to complain, its ok to do so later, dont be a smart guy, dont tell them you will. thats where she lost her case. | Youve come up with a totally different story than fox, who heard the story from the person it happened to. Where did you get these details from and why?
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yksraya
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 7:46 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | My daughter doesn't believe her mask had slipped below her nose but is willing to concede the point for the sake of the argument. If so, the expected reaction from a flight attendant would be to say, "Excuse me, could you please reposition your mask so that it covers your nose?"
I watched the video.
It seems its likely mask was not covering properly. I also saw a nice fligth attendant coming to offer her an alternative mast that may offer better stability and no slip.
I also heard passanger (your daughter) keeping asking for attendants name "bc she wants to tell airlines all details with great accuracy'. In simple English, she tells them she will complain, and need their name.
I think that was a mistake.
She created a confrontational situation. if you want to complain, its ok to do so later, dont be a smart guy, dont tell them you will. thats where she lost her case.
Teach young people to show respect, even if not deserved, and the whole situations maybe would be different.
Take your camera out, record in front of their face, ask for exact name and say out loud you will complain in detail - and you escalated and all turns ugly.
learn from it. You have to be graceful even if others are not.
Do not threat you will complain + taking a video
You are inviting trouble,
and if you lower your head to daven and its not clear mask covers properly, and already something is cooking around you, lift your face, fully covered, tighten your mast. show you are in compliance.
Dont bend back to your sidur. Hashem will be ok with it.
Many other frum were on same flight, they didnt antagonize, and they were able to land at their desination as planned.
We have to create kidush Hashem. Compliance, speak nicely. Show we are good citizens, we appreciate davening, but good judgement is called for.
You would expect me to say airline is horrible, But I would say 'be Mekadesh Hashem". Its no chidush that a non jew can turn not accomodating. But we need to keep clearly appearing respecting rules, polite, compliant. (face up for the rest of the trip, even if you daven).
Sorry it happened. Didnt end up well for anyone. |
Btw, the video you saw is already after she was removed from flight. It starts with her getting checked into the other flight, while she makes sure to get the name of that flight attendant so that she can file a complain. It then shows her following the delta official to the other plane and then you see the flight attendants on next plane... That is what I understood from the video. Fox can you clarify?
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amother
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 7:51 pm
| thunderstorm wrote: | | Why not? |
Video adds a little more that she did not write.
Video I watched today on a frum site (maybe here it was a clip, or some was removed) shows first flight discussing with flight reps on board before getting off...
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emma07
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:21 pm
I know someone who was on that flight and told me a whole different story... there are always 2 sides | Fox wrote: | I think a key point in the whole story is how the flight attendant perceived the situation.
My daughter doesn't believe her mask had slipped below her nose but is willing to concede the point for the sake of the argument. If so, the expected reaction from a flight attendant would be to say, "Excuse me, could you please reposition your mask so that it covers your nose?"
Instead, the flight attendant immediately jumped to the narrative that my daughter was being "non-compliant," confronted her aggressively, and then reported her as "non-compliant" to the pilots. Which explains why the pilots were surprised to see her wearing a mask and attempting to be cooperative after deplaning.
So why did the flight attendant escalate an easily-solvable problem so dramatically? Was it pure antisemitism? Had she been conditioned by the rhetoric of elected officials in NY to believe that frum Jews are likely to be non-compliant? Was she just having a bad day and happened to take it out on my daughter?
All of those are possibilities, and it's unlikely that we'll ever truly know. Certainly some of her remarks suggest that there was more going on than simply a slipped mask -- if indeed the mask had slipped.
What I have learned from this incident is that stories such as this can be true without making any sense. It is easy to dismiss such a story and say, "C'mon! There's gotta be more to the story than that!"
But sometimes, as other posters have verified through similar experiences, there's really not more to the story. Whether motivated by antisemitism or something else, sometimes people in positions of authority simply go off the deep end. Flight attendants, in particular, are particularly susceptible. They have significant responsibility; their jobs are often unpleasant; and they are very poorly paid. Yet I doubt if most of us -- including my daughter -- would be enthused about airfares doubling in order to attract better flight attendants.
While it would be nice if my daughter gets her desired apology and refund, we're not expecting it. But hopefully, Delta will have seen enough references to the incident online to at least tell the flight attendant to use better judgment in the future. |
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CrazyDaisie
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:34 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | My daughter doesn't believe her mask had slipped below her nose but is willing to concede the point for the sake of the argument. If so, the expected reaction from a flight attendant would be to say, "Excuse me, could you please reposition your mask so that it covers your nose?"
I watched the video.
It seems its likely mask was not covering properly. I also saw a nice fligth attendant coming to offer her an alternative mast that may offer better stability and no slip.
I also heard passanger (your daughter) keeping asking for attendants name "bc she wants to tell airlines all details with great accuracy'. In simple English, she tells them she will complain, and need their name.
I think that was a mistake.
She created a confrontational situation. if you want to complain, its ok to do so later, dont be a smart guy, dont tell them you will. thats where she lost her case.
Teach young people to show respect, even if not deserved, and the whole situations maybe would be different.
Take your camera out, record in front of their face, ask for exact name and say out loud you will complain in detail - and you escalated and all turns ugly.
learn from it. You have to be graceful even if others are not.
Do not threat you will complain + taking a video
You are inviting trouble,
and if you lower your head to daven and its not clear mask covers properly, and already something is cooking around you, lift your face, fully covered, tighten your mast. show you are in compliance.
Dont bend back to your sidur. Hashem will be ok with it.
Many other frum were on same flight, they didnt antagonize, and they were able to land at their desination as planned.
We have to create kidush Hashem. Compliance, speak nicely. Show we are good citizens, we appreciate davening, but good judgement is called for.
You would expect me to say airline is horrible, But I would say 'be Mekadesh Hashem". Its no chidush that a non jew can turn not accomodating. But we need to keep clearly appearing respecting rules, polite, compliant. (face up for the rest of the trip, even if you daven).
Sorry it happened. Didnt end up well for anyone. |
Well said.
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:34 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | I watched the video.
It seems its likely mask was not covering properly. I also saw a nice fligth attendant coming to offer her an alternative mast that may offer better stability and no slip.
I also heard passanger (your daughter) keeping asking for attendants name "bc she wants to tell airlines all details with great accuracy'. In simple English, she tells them she will complain, and need their name.
I think that was a mistake.
She created a confrontational situation. if you want to complain, its ok to do so later, dont be a smart guy, dont tell them you will. thats where she lost her case.
Teach young people to show respect, even if not deserved, and the whole situations maybe would be different.
Take your camera out, record in front of their face, ask for exact name and say out loud you will complain in detail - and you escalated and all turns ugly.
learn from it. You have to be graceful even if others are not.
Do not threat you will complain + taking a video
You are inviting trouble,
and if you lower your head to daven and its not clear mask covers properly, and already something is cooking around you, lift your face, fully covered, tighten your mast. show you are in compliance.
Dont bend back to your sidur. Hashem will be ok with it.
Many other frum were on same flight, they didnt antagonize, and they were able to land at their desination as planned.
We have to create kidush Hashem. Compliance, speak nicely. Show we are good citizens, we appreciate davening, but good judgement is called for.
You would expect me to say airline is horrible, But I would say 'be Mekadesh Hashem". Its no chidush that a non jew can turn not accomodating. But we need to keep clearly appearing respecting rules, polite, compliant. (face up for the rest of the trip, even if you daven).
Sorry it happened. Didnt end up well for anyone. |
I don't know what video you watched. There is no video of the original exchange with Erica Green. There are two videos. The first, which has not been publicly circulated, occured before she was deplaned. A flight attendant named "Kimberly" came to tell her that she had been reported as non-compliant and it would be up to the pilots to decide. Before the conversation has ended, someone out of screen tells Kimberly that they are returning to the gate.
At that point, my daughter was still trying to be very conciliatory -- offering to wear a different mask; apologizing if her mask had slipped, etc. Kimberly was professional but unyielding.
The second video -- the one included in the YWN story -- is after my daughter deplaned. She is obviously upset and embarrassed, but also confused as to why this has escalated.
I think you have somehow misunderstood the video you watched or misunderstood the circumstances leading up to it. If someone's mask has slipped, you ask them to reposition it -- you don't insist that she is "non-compliant" and turn the plane around! And if you've been unjustly removed from a plane, asking for details about the individuals who made the decision is hardly being confrontational.
As I said upthread, I can understand why someone might say, "C'mon! Your daughter must have done something to bring this on." But as the video shows, she was relatively calm and polite under the circumstances. I don't think that being even more docile would have made a significant difference.
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:36 pm
| emma07 wrote: | | I know someone who was on that flight and told me a whole different story... there are always 2 sides |
Please PM me to elaborate. I know of at least one individual who contacted YWN to corroborate my daughter's story, but if others saw it differently, I am eager to understand what happened.
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:37 pm
| amother [ Blush ] wrote: | Video adds a little more that she did not write.
Video I watched today on a frum site (maybe here it was a clip, or some was removed) shows first flight discussing with flight reps on board before getting off... |
Can you please link to the video you watched. I am aware of only two videos, neither of which shows more than one flight attendant -- Kimberly.
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CrazyDaisie
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:40 pm
| emma07 wrote: | | I know someone who was on that flight and told me a whole different story... there are always 2 sides |
Interesting.
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octopus
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:53 pm
Fox,
you have my sympathies! I just recently had a really degrading experience in the post office. People like to explain unpleasant situations away because it makes THEM feel better that it could never happen to THEM. Bottom line is, there are some very nasty people in this world, and they enjoy a little power. Your daughter was a victim to it. Tomorrow it will be someone else. Your daughter carried herself like a lady in the face of despicable treatment. Enough of these people trying to explain away bad behavior (on the part of the stewardess). Shame, shame, shame!
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yksraya
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Sun, Dec 06 2020, 9:57 pm
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Fox please don't take it to heart when people claim they know the other side of story etc. When things happen, people like to gossip, and each story suddenly turns into a completely new story that is so distorted from the real one.
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