Puppy - how people feel about it

Cookiegirl

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:25 pm

Here is one perspective regarding the "type" of animal that one may want to have as a pet. Per our Rav, when our kids were small, he advised that we shouldn't get a predatory animal (dog/cat) as a pet, but we could get a "prey" animal without any issues. He relayed a concern regarding the (negative) spiritual influence a predatory animal could bring into the home, particularly vis-a-vis young children. I thought that was an interesting and unexpected answer. FWIW, this was a straight, staunch, litvish Rav who had a PhD in mathematics. Just posting this as food for thought. (We had rabbits and small birds as pets based on his psak).

amother

↑ Bisque

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:25 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

I live in a development in lkwd. There was a point when were we going to forster an extended family member and her dog. The rabbi of the shul wanted us to ok it with our neighbors beforehand. Seems some people have real issues with it... Rolling Eyes

I also was told not to come to a Lakewood complex with a dog and that people wouldn’t have anything to do with me, and that a woman there with a cat even got shunned by some! How very not-frum way to treat someome

↑ enneamom ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:27 pm

enneamom wrote:

I don't know. Maybe someone else has the source?

Some googling later, here's what I found: https://dinonline.org/2017/02/.....pets/

amother

↑ Scarlet ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:28 pm

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Aside from fear, I think some people are opposed to the way dogs become more a part of the family and treated as a person than an animal in a cage would. So there would probably be a difference between a farmer having a dog outside for herding and a dog that sleeps in your room. I know DH really doesn’t like it, but I have no particular source.

I think it is partially fear. I actually think the perceived fear could be a bit of a Chilul Hashem. When my now teen son was a toddler, a dog came up to him in the park and he stroked the dog happily. The owner looked very surprised and said she was just about to tell me that her dog was harmless. She said my son was the first child in a Yarmulke she had seen not fearfully run away from her dog. She also asked me why Jewish parents erroneously taught their children to be fearful of dogs. I was so embarrassed. I said I didn’t know why any parent would teach their kids that dogs were inherently scary. Anyway, thankfully the owner left pleased that a cute Jewish kid liked her dog.

Cheiny ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:28 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

There are a lot of negative sources in the torah and talmud having to do with dogs.
Also, many people say that because of the dogs that were part of the gestapo and the nazi army etc and that negative connotation, many dont have dogs.

We have one. Best thing we ever added to our family. Such love she gives us and we love her right back.

But the dogs who were quiet in mitzrayim are rewarded! I heard someone say the reason for some jews not having is because in the old days a beggar wouldn’t want to come collect tzedaka if he heard a dog and was afraid

amother

↑ Scarlet

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:30 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

I also was told not to come to a Lakewood complex with a dog and that people wouldn’t have anything to do with me, and that a woman there with a cat even got shunned by some! How very in-frum

Shocking! I am curious who told you this? Was it by guests you were visiting?

↑ shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:31 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Im actually laughing because there is one guy who comes collecting by us every few months and our dog barks like crazy when this guy comes. Its gotten so bad that we havent seen him in a long time. But only this guy does she bark so crazy. So I guess there is something to that Smile

↑ enneamom

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 1:33 pm

Like I said, I love puppies, but there is another side. Let's not jump to judge the community so harshly. Read this, from the link I posted above:

Quote:

Keeping Dogs at Home

The Gemara (Bava Kama 15b) cites from Rabbi Noson that one who raises an “evil dog” in his home transgresses the Torah prohibition of “Do not place blood in your home” (Devarim 22:8). This clearly implies that when the dog is not “evil,” meaning, a dog that is not predisposed to cause damage, it is permitted to raise a dog in one’s home. Later in Bava Kama (80a) we find specific permission (in the name of Rabbi Yishmael) to raise a dogs for the purpose of eliminating rodents (Rashi explains that the reference is to small dogs or hunting dogs that do no harm).

At the same time, we find (Bava Kama 79b) that it is forbidden to own a dog unless the dog is securely chained up, so that it cannot cause physical damage, nor frighten anyone with its bark—which the Gemara notes can cause a woman to miscarry her child. This seems to apply to any dogs, and not only to dangerous ones.

The Gemara expands on this statement (83a), also mentioning (in the name of Rabbi Eliezer) that one who raises a dog is considered as one who raises a pig, for which a special curse applies—though the Rama explains that this refers only to an untied dog, and not to a dog that is kept tied.

Based on these sources, the Rambam (Nizkei Mammon 5:9) thus rules that it is forbidden to raise any dog unless it is secured by chains. He explains the reason for this, “since dogs often cause significant damage.”

However, most early authorities understand that the restriction noted in the Gemara, whereby one can own a dog only if it is chained securely, is limited to “evil dogs”—dogs prone to damaging others. For domesticated and “well-behaved” dogs there is no such restriction, and it is permitted to keep such a dog without concern (see Tur, Choshen Mishpat 409; Hagahos Maimoni, Rotze’ach 11:3; Semag, Aseh 66). This lenient opinion is noted by the Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 409:3), and this is also the general ruling given by later authorities.

What is an “Evil Dog”?

In defining an “evil dog,” the Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kama 7:45) writes that only dogs that neither bite nor bark are exempted from the category—as noted above, a dog that barks is considered dangerous since a threatening bark can cause a woman to miscarry. Therefore, he requires one to chain his dog even if it only barks.

The Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Shmiras Guf Ve’nefesh, 3) reaches a similar conclusion, noting that many Jews own dogs that bark but do not bite, but stating that the justification for this is weak, since the consensus of authorities is that even a dog that merely barks must not be kept unchained. He concludes that “all G-d-fearing Jews should ensure that dogs that bark are secured with iron chains while people are awake, even if these dogs merely bark and do not bite” (see also Kenesses Hagedola, Choshen Mishpat 409:4).

It is noteworthy that Rabbi Yaakov Emden (Sheilas Yaavetz 17) states that in any case it is only permitted to keep dogs for purposes of protection or for some economic reason, but other than this one should refrain from the practice, which reflects the negative ways of non-Jews.

This special stringency, however, is not noted by other authorities—though the Sefer Chassidim (1038) writes that owning birds is “nonsense,” and that money should be put to better use.

BH Yom Yom ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 5:54 pm

Halachos aside - and OP I’m sure you know this, not trying to lecture to anyone, but just putting this out there - adopting a pet is a responsibility and a commitment for the lifetime of the pet. So many times I have seen frum (and non-frum, but more commonly frum) people adopt animals, keep them for a few months, decide it’s too much trouble, and get rid of them either by “dumping” them (horrifying - how can a person abandon an animal they have committed to caring for?!) or “rehoming” them without assessing whether the new owner is trustworthy. Pet rescue and adoption agencies have protective measures to assess potential adoptive families and this weeds out most of the unscrupulous people who would use them as bait in dogfighting rings. In the event that a person genuinely needs to rehome a pet, animal rescue agencies can guide through the process to ensure the pet’s safety.

Please, please adopt from a reputable rescue agency, no puppy mills or other profit-based breeding programs.

On another note - I learned that halachically a person is only allowed to take ownership of a pet if they are fully able to provide for it.

Also - it’s easier to avoid halachic issues about spaying/neutering if you adopt one who is already fixed. I hope you find a puppy who is a good fit for your family! Smile

↑ thunderstorm

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 5:57 pm

BH Yom Yom- good point! My DS sells animals , and people often buy them and return them for him to take care of 3 weeks to a month later after being too overwhelmed with the expense and care it takes to have a pet. Never thought about it as an issue with frum families. But his clientele is frum and this happens ALL the time. Interesting .

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:01 pm

My son wants a puppy so bad. It would be great for him. As of now it’s a no because of daddy and siblings and neighbors 😒
I was thinking of a guinea pig instead - would that be better accepted?

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:05 pm

My family got a dog when I was single. I was no longer living at home. I love dogs but it is looked down upon. I warned my parents before that if they would get one, it could effect my shidduchim (which weren't easy to begin with since my family doesn't have the best name for other reasons). I also told them that if after I got married, my husband wasn't ok with it, they would need to do something. I don't think they believed me. Now, if they want us to come for Shabbos, they need to find a dog sitter bc my husband won't go there otherwise.
I am not sure what your Hashkafa is but it will definitely put a stigma in you if you identify as mainstream or live in that type of community (in town or oot).

Reality

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:07 pm

Aside from religious reasons, a dog is as much work as another child. Frum families have more kids and don't have the extra time or money for a dog. And I think most frum families given the choice, time spent on a puppy or a new baby, choose the baby!

tigerwife ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:08 pm

It’s very neighborhood specific. It would be unfair of me to get a dog in my neighborhood.

ra_mom ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:10 pm

RuralIma wrote:

There seems to be a large percentage of frum Jews who are afraid of dogs so they just become across the board taboo? I've known frum people who had dogs and some who vehemently hated dogs. We had 2 dogs, 1 we adopted older and the other we got as a puppy. Now we only have the younger one.

My grandma grew up with dogs on a farm. Maybe generations of city living has made people afraid of things they're not used to.

↑ BH Yom Yom ↓

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:11 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

Thank you for the kind words, thunderstorm. I feel strongly about this and that it’s important for people to adopt animals only if they are prepared for what it realistically entails. The pattern of “adopt, keep for a few weeks/ months, get rid of pets” is unfortunately common, especially among frum people. People don’t necessarily grasp that pet ownership is a commitment. Often they think, “oh, it would be fun for the kids if we got a dog/ cat/ lizard/ chicken/ bunny/ hamster/ sheep etc.” and then once 1) the novelty wears off, 2) cleaning the litter box/ habitat/ regular walks and “pooper scooping” becomes a daily activity 3) vet and food bills start adding up 4) certain relatives/ friends are uncomfortable visiting or 5) care for the pet becomes more of a chore than a fun experience, that’s when pets start to get returned, rehomed or abandoned c”v. If someone is unprepared to make this commitment - it’s better to find other ways of spending time with animals (volunteer with a shelter, pet-sit for people who go out of town, etc.).

Another thing - it’s CRUCIAL to make sure that both spouses (and any children who will be responsible for pet care) are on board with adopting and caring for the pet. If the main caregiver(s) is sick or otherwise unavailable, other members of the household need to be prepared to step in.

If you go out of town, the pet needs to have care prearranged with someone who can handle all aspects of daily care and who is prepared and willing to take the pet to the vet (regular or emergency) should the need arise c”v.

Stepping off my soap box now (temporarily) so that the kittens I’m fostering can use it as a jungle gym. Laugh

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:12 pm

Me and my husband love dogs/animals and a bit obssesed lol. I think other people have strong opinions of animals or not and as long as when they come over, If they are scared or whatever you make arrangements ( dog stay in another room etc) to consider their needs , then that's it. It sounds very judgmental . I know there are some halachot about shabbat or something but as long as it's considered than if these "friends" are making you feel bad and your happy , then they don't sound like such supportive friends... It's ok to express an opionion... But not telling your what to do and how to live your life...

↑ ra_mom

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:17 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

My son wants a puppy so bad. It would be great for him. As of now it’s a no because of daddy and siblings and neighbors 😒
I was thinking of a guinea pig instead - would that be better accepted?

We have a guinea pig. You have to be committed. They live on average of 8 years (could be more). Hamsters are less work, live on average of 2 years but are not as cuddly. We had 2 hamsters back to back years ago.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:17 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

There's halachic issues with owning a dog apparently.

I don't know them - I grew up with a dog and 2 of my siblings have dogs. I love them!
There is backlash but who cares!

I just don't want one, it's like raising another toddler. It's too much work for me.

I keep telling DH we should dogsit though. Makes good money and we would have so much fun!

Same. I love dogs but it’s hard enough raising my kids. I’m not looking for more work. If I lived on a farm I would get one.

ShishKabob

Thu, Jun 25 2020, 6:24 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

this